Copyrighting puppets

[puppetron]

so, i'm (supposedly) desigining and building puppets for a guy who wants to create a puppet sketch show here in Chicago. we're still talking about pricing and such (i want to charge about $360 in labor for each puppet and then about $80 for materials, but he doesn't want to spend that much because it's only in a workshop phase). but anyways, i was wondering how the copyrighting on these guys goes. I assume that the design is copyrighted to me and i can make more if i want, but he gets the puppet and can do whatever he wants with it once it is sold to him. any advice is appreciated, i'm sure there are a lot of you who have come across this issue before.

thanks,
Mary Kate

 

[TheCreatureWork]

A easy way to copyright

You can always make a copy of your pattern- along with some pictures and mail them to yourself- don't open the mail when you get it the post mark will act as a reference to when you made it. Easy and cheap.

 

[puppetsmith]

Well I'm certainly not an attorney so don't take this as legal advice, but here's what I know. The first question I would ask is whether you are creating the characters or is the client providing drawings/sketches of the characters they want built. That can make a world of difference. If they are providing sketches and you are merely building puppets of their characters, then you can consider the job a build. They own the copyright of the characters.

If the company is asking you to create characters and build the puppets, then that's a different story. As soon as you put your pencil to the paper, everything you create is protected under U.S. Copyright Laws. You can follow that up by submitting your work to the Library of Congress, although it is not necessary to be protected under the law (it does provide more of a case in court and entitles you to sue for certain things in addition to copyright infringement like attorneys fees). You would therefore own the copyrights to the characters, UNLESS a written agreement was agreed upon and signed by both parties stating that any work you do for the company is a "work for hire". "Work for hire" is a legal term and has a legal definition. The agreement should be done and signed before any creative work begins. Then and only then does the company own the copyright to the characters you create for them.

You can find out more about copyright laws here - www.copyright.gov.

 

[puppetron]

thanks guys. I'm doing all of the designing and building, he's merely suggested the kinds of characters he'd like, it's all very vague still, he's in busy producer mode which means i send him emails and voicemails and he doesn't respond to me for days, but i figure i should know this in case he asks.

i assume that the "work for hire" scenario is sort of how it works when you're working for Henson. all the designs and building you do belongs to them. whereas if i'm just selling this guy the puppets, the designs are copyrighted to me and he owns the puppets themselves. he hasn't mentioned the term "work for hire" but then again, he's not a puppet company, just a producer working on a concept.

this is really helpful, so thanks!
Mary Kate

 

[Was Once Ernie]

Mary Kate,

Before you do anything, get the agreement of who owns what IN WRITING! Don't assume anything. I can't stress this enough.

From someone who's been burned...

 

[ravagefrackle]

You can always make a copy of your pattern- along with some pictures and mail them to yourself- don't open the mail when you get it the post mark will act as a reference to when you made it. Easy and cheap.

NO IT WONT , i have had many discusions with a entertainment and copyright attorney , this will do no good whats so ever!

if you want a copyright then get a real copyright ,

 

[ravagefrackle]

so, i'm (supposedly) desigining and building puppets for a guy who wants to create a puppet sketch show here in Chicago. we're still talking about pricing and such (i want to charge about $360 in labor for each puppet and then about $80 for materials, but he doesn't want to spend that much because it's only in a workshop phase). but anyways, i was wondering how the copyrighting on these guys goes. I assume that the design is copyrighted to me and i can make more if i want, but he gets the puppet and can do whatever he wants with it once it is sold to him. any advice is appreciated, i'm sure there are a lot of you who have come across this issue before.

thanks,
Mary Kate

you are not charging enough for your time.or your materials, im just guessing since i do not know what your designs look like, but

$360.00 in labor? $80 in materials,

what about a design fee? and transfer of owner ship? if the show takes off, they get all the profits and you get nothing.

are you only paying your self $8 and hour?

you would be better off renting him some puppets , make it clear in a contract the puppets, thier likeness and designs are yours, and thet you are renting him the puppest for a given amount of time to workshop or film thier show.and that atthe end of the agreed upon time the puppets will be returned to you.

if they want to purchase the puppets out right, designs and all , your price needs to go way up.


Sorry to go on a tear here,

but this is the problem when Beginers (and i am only assuming you are new to the industry)are offered work

you look at it as hey , my stuff will be on stage, or on tv, that will get me further along.

it aint so the entertainment industry has a short memory and staffs change all the tiem.

, We puppet designers have no Unions, or Guilds watching our backs when it comes to pricing our work, but look at it this way,

if you were a writer on this show you would make sure you have a piece of the pie comming to you.
(hence the strike , which is affecting alot of us people who are self employed and service the Tv and Film industry, but will see no benifits from this strike)

same for the creator,he wants his cut to

same for the Backers or producers., boy oh boy do they want a cut.


so exactly why would you be willing to give away your time , money , and talent for pretty much nothing?it seems like no one involved is a designer, or fabrictor, or really even knows about puppets for tv.

you need to retain legal council, or at least speak to a lawer who specializes in this sort of stuff.

secondly, By charging so little you are devauling all of us,

Most people in TV,Theatre and to a lesser degree film, have no idea what goes into Puppet creation,

I get people asking me to build puppets all the time, and after going over thier designs, or discussing a original design of my own, they are shocked to learn how much it can cost.Most think....

"Hey its a puppet , how much could that cost , $200 $300, and once our show is a hit, will make a fortune, to heck with the puppet designer"

Do not perpetuate the generalaztion that our work is worth less than a writer, or actor,or a painter, or a fine arts sculptur. you are creating the product they are going to try and sell, for all the writers nice words, and the directors clever camera angles, even the puppeteers funny voice, all the kids will see is WHAT YOU CREATED, and if the show works, when they go to the toy store, its your work that is going to sell the product.

sorry to be so agressive here, but if puppetbuilders, and designers dont start valuing thier work, how do you expect anyone else to?

 

[Onath]

wow awesome post ravage frackle. Thanks I will remember this post next time I sell a puppet.

 

[puppetron]

Ravagefrackle,
that was a pretty good post there. and while i do agree strongly with what you're saying, this is my first "big" gig, deep down i know i should be charging more, but it's hard for me to reconcile pricing when i feel like if this falls through, poof, it's back to square one. i mean, i'm not a big name in the industry, not incredibly advanced in my puppet making skills (i've only been building for about 3 years) and he was very clear about not wanting to invest a ton in the workshop stage, while he's still figuring out if the show will work. he did talk about spending more if the show proves to be feasible, which we'll have to talk about more. i looked at andrew's puppet pricing calculator and used it as a guideline for my prices. i'm charging about $18/hr and each puppet takes me about 20 hours to build, hence the $360, and i calculated material cost to be $87 (I did forget about shipping, so when we work out a price i'll have to add that in). i'm trying to reach a happy medium, not undervaluing myself while not scaring him away.

i do like the idea of having a rental fee and then if/when the show takes off i'll make more money by selling him the puppets and/or designing more. there is supposedly another builder from LA working with him and i'm currently trying to get his email so i can ask him how much he's charging for his work.

it may sound like i disagree with you, but i don't. i'm just trying to figure this all out for the first time. thank you all for the advice.

Mary Kate

 

[ravagefrackle]

i do understand your perdicement, but you need to look out for yourself,

i hear the old"WHEN WE GET MONEY WE WILL SPEND MORE " all the time, it never happens, in the end, only you can protect yourself,

as for your pricing, i do not know what you things look like, simple puppets may not take much time, but since you are designing from scrathc u need to charge a design fee, the time involved in sketching out the characetrs and presenting them, also youll need to work in a clause about alterations, since they will mostlikley want you to change something .

i understand thier desire to not spend money, but you need to not be so trusting that they will take care of you in the end.