And America Continues to Show it's True Colors. . .

[MuppetsRule]

That's inaccurate. Please read some of those again. Most Republicans are still tacitly supporting Roy Moore. Mitch McConnell did same kind of spineless thing he always does because he fears being primaried by the Tea Party. He said that IF these things are true, then he should resign. That's not the same thing because the statute of limitations has long run out and he knows that. There will never be any more proof than there is now. There's just the statement by the women and over 30 carefully documented corroborating witnesses and Roy Moore's slick talk and convenient memory.

The GOP in Alabama is making the same exact move, but worse. They're comparing Moore's immoral behavior to Mary and Joseph and some have even stated that the victims should be prosecuted for waiting so long. Read their statements. There's only a few or real people withdrawing their support and even fewer that demanding that he step down immediately.

I loved Mitt Romney's statement. It's my favorite thing that he's ever said. This is a republican problem. They're all more terrified of Bannon's ire than they are a likely pedophile. It's as disturbing as it is gross. Mark my words, this is the moment that things either change drastically or the party will fracture. The elections this week have shown the beginning of America's rejection of Trumpism tactics.

I'm not sure where you're sourcing your things from. Just checking because in this weird age of people calling Fake News at anything they don't like makes it challenging to some. I find the longest papers of record to be the most trustworthy. Their longevity comes from their care and their duty to print retractions any time they get things wrong. Scandal blogs like Breitbart are just chum for the chumps. We have some of those on the Lib side too. It's best to steer clear of all of that. Heck, it's best to steer clear of news blogs altogether. It's crap. They just want clicks and fast. They don't care what's accurate. I'm not saying that you do that, but so many people do. Even one of my parents does that and it make having any sort of conversation tough. I actually have a chart somewhere that I posted a while back. It's very helpful and non partisan. I personally find a blending of the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal to be a good mixture of checks and balances.

EDIT: I just read your second post and it's the analysis that I think is off. What the NYT is saying is all behind the scenes. They're not doing any of these things publicly because they're cowards. They're playing it safe in the media while trying to fix things behind closed doors. Treating sex abuse and sexual abusers like that is why we have this issue in the first place. That's terrible and I'm still right on the money here. Maybe it'll be different when they come back on Monday. We'll see. Still, publicly these turkeys are hanging out on the fence what is called a CYA move. That crassly stands for Cover Your A**. And I politely object to the term narrative. It's what's happening. They're doing one thing in public for the cameras and one thing in private. Some sources are contacting the newspapers to make them look good without having to be held accountable by Bannon and his mob.

I get what you are saying about their tepid condemnation and the qualifying statement "if these are true". And I agree. But here's the thing. First, it's "they aren't speaking out against him". And then when it's pointed out that they are it's, "well, they didn't use the right words." Next, if they use the right words it'll be, "Well, it sounds like a PR firm wrote the statement" or "they're just dong it to look good for political reasons." Where's it all end? If the situation were reversed Republicans would be the same way.It's the nature of poitcs today.

And as far as the Alabama Republicans I did point out that they do still seem to be supporting him.

And as far as where I'm getting my news sources from? Well, the article I posted is from the NY Tiimes. Have never read Bliebart. Don't really watch any of the cable news outlets, other than maybe CNN when there is a big news story breaking. And I agree about so many of the so-called news websites and blogs. They are crap. Personally I feel that they, along with talk radio and the cable news outlets that aren't putting out news but political opinions are mostly responsible for how we got to be such a divided country in the first place. They all peddle hate, it's just a matter of who to hate. The blogs depend on clicks and the TV and radio depend on ratings for advertising dollars. The way they get them is to say outlandish stuff.

And as far as saying the Republicans are just doing these things behind the scenes I disagree. They've come out and spoken against him. Asked him to withdraw. Legally, they cannot simply remove him from the ballot. But they have taken other steps

1) they removed financial backing
2) they've pushed for a write-in candidate
3) they've explored how and if they can delay the election
4) many have rescinded their endorsement
5) they have talked about not seating him if he does win

I mean, really? It sure seems like they've taken plenty of steps to prevent him from taking the senate seat.

And I know, one can easily say they are just taking those steps for political reasons. But it goes both ways. According to the NY Times article, Democrats have been holding back in this race. But now that there is political blood in the water and they see a chance to gain a seat, they are getting in to the race and throwing more money at it. Both sides play politics.

 

[Old Thunder]

I initially liked Louie CK's admission, but then read it again and it's like a lawyer went through it. I mean, he didn't grope anyone. He kinda, in a way, groped himself. I'm not going to go in graphic detail because we know what he did. But it's still so gross and awful. I live in SF where some people still walk bare butt naked down the street, but they don't do what he did. Is that something people do now? He never really said the word I'm Sorry, offered any sort of aid to his victims and turned the fact that he intimidated these women into some sort of admiration of him. That is friggin gross. Still, he said he was sorry. I've had challenging path in life and I won't go into that, but I cherish almost any apology that admits fault and doesn't blame the victims. It's hard to get anything out of anyone. My thought is that Louie CK played it safe for when these women come at him for settlement money. If he said the words Intimidate or Sorry he might actually have to pay more, so made a not so artful dodge by using the terms Admiration and Remorseful. Words matter.

These were my thoughts as well. Louis sounds remorseful, and I bet he probably is right now, yet his reply was too well written for it to really be an apology. Certainly better than 90% of those accused of stuff like this. Yet there's also the fact that he kept brushing the accusations off in the past, which earns no points in my book. It's a shame for his career as well, but I personally, despite being a comedy fan, never really got what made him so popular. Only the technology bits really stand out for me, otherwise he's been overrated since day 1. Still, said to here.

As for Spacey. Saying that being drunk one night that you got handsy with an adult is bad enough, but to young teenager - that is never okay. His apology was as slick and slimy as the character he played on House of Cards. I loved his performance and I love that show. Who knew he wasn't really acting. I suspect many people in the entertainment industry are somewhere on the sociopath spectrum. I'm not cynical. It's just a fact of life that attracts many people to a career that includes constant approval and fame. They're empty vessels trying to be filled. I don't know what's in his heart. I don't understand his actions or his words and I guess this is my clumsy way of try to make sense of it so that I can put a label on it and not have to think about it anymore. The truth is, he was still behaving abominably until this report came out. That's a lifetime of victims. I said this about Trump and I'll say it about Spacey. He's absolutely deplorable. I don't care if it's a sickness or what. He knew he had it and didn't get help. I hate saying someone is a monster because monsters don't exist. This is a person who did these horrible things and knew they were wrong at the time. I don't know a good word to call them.

I've never been a fan of Spacey, but that's probably because the only thing I've ever seen him in is Glengarry Glen Ross. Still, his response really lowers any opinion I might have had of him.

I would like to say a few things however - whenever someone gets accused to these kinds of things, I'm usually a 50/50 skeptical and believing. On one hand, it's getting pretty ridiculous with how many are coming out with these statements lately, but on the other hand, they usually have some kind of proof or other people to back them up. Of course, as things progress, it usually becomes more obvious that what they've been accused of is true.

Secondly, I think that the "I wonder why I ever thought they were good" argument should stop. Yes, you're probably not going to enjoy their work as much anymore, and yes, they do need to stop with whatever their doing and take a break (or stop altogether for good), but that doesn't mean that what they put out earlier isn't brilliant, it just means that as people, they're POS's. I'm going to be surprised if no one disagrees with me on this, but these are my thoughts so...

And finally, I really need to ask "Why?" I mean, come on, let's be sensible here - if all you want to do is jerk off in front of someone, can't you, I dunno, watch porn or something? It's free, there are far fewer consequences to be had than, y'know, what these guys were doing. And as to rape and that kind of stuff, yeah, people are fricking idiots. I say a lot of stuff to get reactions from people, but it's always just that - to get reactions. My mentality is still normal. These guys' aren't.

Anyways, my thoughts. Analyze them if you wish.

 

[jvcarroll]

I get what you are saying about their tepid condemnation and the qualifying statement "if these are true". And I agree. But here's the thing. First, it's "they aren't speaking out against him". And then when it's pointed out that they are it's, "well, they didn't use the right words." Next, if they use the right words it'll be, "Well, it sounds like a PR firm wrote the statement" or "they're just dong it to look good for political reasons." Where's it all end? If the situation were reversed Republicans would be the same way.It's the nature of poitcs today.

And as far as the Alabama Republicans I did point out that they do still seem to be supporting him.

And as far as where I'm getting my news sources from? Well, the article I posted is from the NY Tiimes. Have never read Bliebart. Don't really watch any of the cable news outlets, other than maybe CNN when there is a big news story breaking. And I agree about so many of the so-called news websites and blogs. They are crap. Personally I feel that they, along with talk radio and the cable news outlets that aren't putting out news but political opinions are mostly responsible for how we got to be such a divided country in the first place. They all peddle hate, it's just a matter of who to hate. The blogs depend on clicks and the TV and radio depend on ratings for advertising dollars. The way they get them is to say outlandish stuff.

And as far as saying the Republicans are just doing these things behind the scenes I disagree. They've come out and spoken against him. Asked him to withdraw. Legally, they cannot simply remove him from the ballot. But they have taken other steps

1) they removed financial backing
2) they've pushed for a write-in candidate
3) they've explored how and if they can delay the election
4) many have rescinded their endorsement
5) they have talked about not seating him if he does win

I mean, really? It sure seems like they've taken plenty of steps to prevent him from taking the senate seat.

And I know, one can easily say they are just taking those steps for political reasons. But it goes both ways. According to the NY Times article, Democrats have been holding back in this race. But now that there is political blood in the water and they see a chance to gain a seat, they are getting in to the race and throwing more money at it. Both sides play politics.

This is not about being picky about words. It's not an issue of semantics. I will say this again. A condemnation of a known pedophile should not be parsed with doubt. That is cowardly. If a democrat did that, I'd be saying the same thing. If you condemn something or someone - you condemn it. You don't attach conditions that will never happen. All one needs to believe the 14 year old victim is to read the entire article about this issue. She reveals so many unflattering things about herself and places herself in a position to get doxxed by extremists and that happened. If she can show that kind of bravery, our congress sure as heck should be able to completely stand up with her. Again, they're just behaving cowardly in convenience to what will serve them in this moment. That said, they can refuse to ratify his appointment to the senate. That can happen, but the time for them to truly stand up and join courageous people like Mitt Romney and John McCain is now. They haven't done that. Most republicans have one foot in and one foot out. This is not about being picky. This is about their behavior not being nearly good enough. This is a guy who molested a child. There's absolutely NO doubletalk that should be happening now. None. This mythical "they" you reference needs to stop hiding behind the scenes and step up in public. We don't really know who "they" are. You've got to list specific people who said something and exactly what they said. If you can find even a dozen Republican congressmen who outright and in public told him to step down - without conditions attached, you'll surprise the heck out of me. With all the Twittering, the TV interviews and the newspaper quotes that happen, I've yet to witness that. What we know is that the Alabama GOP has thrown their full-throated support behind Moore. As ugly as those are, they are the facts. Rescinding an endorsement is not a condemnation. It's a lack of official support. If someone touched your sister or daughter that way, would you just say that you don't endorse them? No. You say they should step down and be ehld accountable. Any person would. This should be no different. You can list things (and I really appreciate lists, you know that) but nothing makes what they're doing right now okay. The party needs to unite in public without the hollow "if/then" language to tell him to step down. That's what true leadership looks like.

 

[jvcarroll]

These were my thoughts as well. Louis sounds remorseful, and I bet he probably is right now, yet his reply was too well written for it to really be an apology. Certainly better than 90% of those accused of stuff like this. Yet there's also the fact that he kept brushing the accusations off in the past, which earns no points in my book. It's a shame for his career as well, but I personally, despite being a comedy fan, never really got what made him so popular. Only the technology bits really stand out for me, otherwise he's been overrated since day 1. Still, said to here.

I've never been a fan of Spacey, but that's probably because the only thing I've ever seen him in is Glengarry Glen Ross. Still, his response really lowers any opinion I might have had of him.

I would like to say a few things however - whenever someone gets accused to these kinds of things, I'm usually a 50/50 skeptical and believing. On one hand, it's getting pretty ridiculous with how many are coming out with these statements lately, but on the other hand, they usually have some kind of proof or other people to back them up. Of course, as things progress, it usually becomes more obvious that what they've been accused of is true.

Secondly, I think that the "I wonder why I ever thought they were good" argument should stop. Yes, you're probably not going to enjoy their work as much anymore, and yes, they do need to stop with whatever their doing and take a break (or stop altogether for good), but that doesn't mean that what they put out earlier isn't brilliant, it just means that as people, they're POS's. I'm going to be surprised if no one disagrees with me on this, but these are my thoughts so...

And finally, I really need to ask "Why?" I mean, come on, let's be sensible here - if all you want to do is jerk off in front of someone, can't you, I dunno, watch porn or something? It's free, there are far fewer consequences to be had than, y'know, what these guys were doing. And as to rape and that kind of stuff, yeah, people are fricking idiots. I say a lot of stuff to get reactions from people, but it's always just that - to get reactions. My mentality is still normal. These guys' aren't.

Anyways, my thoughts. Analyze them if you wish.

I really do feel sad about CK too. I know some folk might say that what he did wasn't as bad, and physically it wasn't, but I know what it's like to be sexually harassed and afraid to lose my job. It happened to me and once the rejection was made absolutely clear, my boss waited for reason to fire me. My college schedule changed and he got that reason. Before, it was "no problem". After, it was "we really need someone here 40 hours a week." That was something they never gave anybody due to expenses.

Spacey, however, is an absolute creeper. I hate to say anyone's unfixable, but I think he is probably broken for life and always dangerous to be around.

While it's important to take everything with a grain of salt, it's also crucial that we believe more people when they come out with this. Most of them are telling the truth. Only a minority of stupid folk lie about this because it's difficult to prove and can really harm an accuser's future.

 

[jvcarroll]

I get what you are saying about their tepid condemnation and the qualifying statement "if these are true". And I agree. But here's the thing. First, it's "they aren't speaking out against him". And then when it's pointed out that they are it's, "well, they didn't use the right words." Next, if they use the right words it'll be, "Well, it sounds like a PR firm wrote the statement" or "they're just dong it to look good for political reasons." Where's it all end? If the situation were reversed Republicans would be the same way.It's the nature of poitcs today.

And as far as the Alabama Republicans I did point out that they do still seem to be supporting him.

And as far as where I'm getting my news sources from? Well, the article I posted is from the NY Tiimes. Have never read Bliebart. Don't really watch any of the cable news outlets, other than maybe CNN when there is a big news story breaking. And I agree about so many of the so-called news websites and blogs. They are crap. Personally I feel that they, along with talk radio and the cable news outlets that aren't putting out news but political opinions are mostly responsible for how we got to be such a divided country in the first place. They all peddle hate, it's just a matter of who to hate. The blogs depend on clicks and the TV and radio depend on ratings for advertising dollars. The way they get them is to say outlandish stuff.

And as far as saying the Republicans are just doing these things behind the scenes I disagree. They've come out and spoken against him. Asked him to withdraw. Legally, they cannot simply remove him from the ballot. But they have taken other steps

1) they removed financial backing
2) they've pushed for a write-in candidate
3) they've explored how and if they can delay the election
4) many have rescinded their endorsement
5) they have talked about not seating him if he does win

I mean, really? It sure seems like they've taken plenty of steps to prevent him from taking the senate seat.

And I know, one can easily say they are just taking those steps for political reasons. But it goes both ways. According to the NY Times article, Democrats have been holding back in this race. But now that there is political blood in the water and they see a chance to gain a seat, they are getting in to the race and throwing more money at it. Both sides play politics.

I also have to add that I like your point of view on valid media. It offends me that so many conservatives keep attacking the papers of record like the NY Times, but especially the Washington Post. Even the lecherous Bill O'Reilly sung the praises of the Post for years on his program (yes, I click on the idiot Fox News Channel to see what the heck they're saying in Bizarro World) and he absolutely loved the Post until they started following the money and misdeeds of Donald Trump in 2016. They did the same to Sec. Clinton, but there was not so much meat to it. These papers source all of their material and have to be right before they publish. Cable news and blogs are far more sloppy and not in depth at all. They're about posting headlines on the screen to shock people. Shameful. Cable news makes everyone dumber.

 

[MuppetsRule]

This is not about being picky about words. It's not an issue of semantics. I will say this again. A condemnation of a known pedophile should not be parsed with doubt. That is cowardly. If a democrat did that, I'd be saying the same thing. If you condemn something or someone - you condemn it. You don't attach conditions that will never happen. All one needs to believe the 14 year old victim is to read the entire article about this issue. She reveals so many unflattering things about herself and places herself in a position to get doxxed by extremists and that happened. If she can show that kind of bravery, our congress sure as heck should be able to completely stand up with her. Again, they're just behaving cowardly in convenience to what will serve them in this moment. That said, they can refuse to ratify his appointment to the senate. That can happen, but the time for them to truly stand up and join courageous people like Mitt Romney and John McCain is now. They haven't done that. Most republicans have one foot in and one foot out. This is not about being picky. This is about their behavior not being nearly good enough. This is a guy who molested a child. There's absolutely NO doubletalk that should be happening now. None. This mythical "they" you reference needs to stop hiding behind the scenes and step up in public. We don't really know who "they" are. You've got to list specific people who said something and exactly what they said. If you can find even a dozen Republican congressmen who outright and in public told him to step down - without conditions attached, you'll surprise the heck out of me. With all the Twittering, the TV interviews and the newspaper quotes that happen, I've yet to witness that. What we know is that the Alabama GOP has thrown their full-throated support behind Moore. As ugly as those are, they are the facts. Rescinding an endorsement is not a condemnation. It's a lack of official support. If someone touched your sister or daughter that way, would you just say that you don't endorse them? No. You say they should step down and be ehld accountable. Any person would. This should be no different. You can list things (and I really appreciate lists, you know that) but nothing makes what they're doing right now okay. The party needs to unite in public without the hollow "if/then" language to tell him to step down. That's what true leadership looks like.

I think we're in agreement here for the most part. Republicans absolutely need to be more forceful in condemning Roy Moore. They need to do away with the conditional talk of "if they are true." No ifs, ands, or buts about it. But that wasn't my point. My point was that that the Republicans are going to get criticized over this no matter what. If they speak out it's going to be that the words they choose aren't the right words or why didn't they speak out earlier, etc. The Dems are going to find a way to criticize them for it, no matter what. They want to keep this front and center for political purposes. As would the Republicans if the situation were reversed. I'm not in disillusionment about how one side is better than the other. If either side has an opportunity to politicize something and gain political points they are going to do so. Democrats sell out for power just as much as Republicans. Democrats and Republicans will defend their slimeballs until it is painfully obvious it is a losing cause and only then will they do the right thing. Bill Clinton is still treated as an elder statesman in the Democratic party. And I know you're not a fan of Bill Clinton, but every time the Dems need a fund raising boost or a boost in voter turnout they roll him out.

ETA: And I'm not saying that what Roy Moore did and what Bill Clinton did are equivalent. Cause they're not. What I am saying is that BOTH sides are wiling to bend their values if it fits their political needs.

 

[MuppetsRule]

And as far as saying the Republicans are just doing these things behind the scenes I disagree. They've come out and spoken against him. Asked him to withdraw. Legally, they cannot simply remove him from the ballot. But they have taken other steps

1) they removed financial backing
2) they've pushed for a write-in candidate
3) they've explored how and if they can delay the election
4) many have rescinded their endorsement
5) they have talked about not seating him if he does win

And just to reiterate my point. I'm a big believer that actions speak louder than words. The actions that the Republicans have taken make it clear that they don't tolerate Roy Moore's behavior. Regardless of what they said or how they said it.

 

[jvcarroll]

I think we're in agreement here for the most part. Republicans absolutely need to be more forceful in condemning Roy Moore. They need to do away with the conditional talk of "if they are true." No ifs, ands, or buts about it. But that wasn't my point. My point was that that the Republicans are going to get criticized over this no matter what. If they speak out it's going to be that the words they choose aren't the right words or why didn't they speak out earlier, etc. The Dems are going to find a way to criticize them for it, no matter what. They want to keep this front and center for political purposes. As would the Republicans if the situation were reversed. I'm not in disillusionment about how one side is better than the other. If either side has an opportunity to politicize something and gain political points they are going to do so. Democrats sell out for power just as much as Republicans. Democrats and Republicans will defend their slimeballs until it is painfully obvious it is a losing cause and only then will they do the right thing. Bill Clinton is still treated as an elder statesman in the Democratic party. And I know you're not a fan of Bill Clinton, but every time the Dems need a fund raising boost or a boost in voter turnout they roll him out.

ETA: And I'm not saying that what Roy Moore did and what Bill Clinton did are equivalent. Cause they're not. What I am saying is that BOTH sides are wiling to bend their values if it fits their political needs.

There's just too much careful wordplay. It's like the non-apologies of Spacey and CK. You use clear words with no backtracking if you really want to say something. I'm waiting for these boogers to show up and do that as a whole. There are no excuses good enough to justify every single republican, or even a quarter of them, not saying clearly - "These accusations are dam*ning and Roy Moore must step down." and then follow that with their actions. That's how it's done.

I appreciate that actions speak louder than words, but both words AND actions matter much. It's important that it be a package deal of both. And these whispering campaigns about what they might do with Moore behind closed doors aren't actions. They are just as convenient a contrivance as the if/then statements. They get to enjoy the appearance of doing something by republican voters whether something gets done or not. This also shields them from accountability to the people still supporting Moore. His home state is still ALL IN FOR MOORE. The people, the party and the politicians. That's nuts. We're in the Upside Down now. I just wish Roy Moore would try to start something with Eleven so that she could end his sordid crapola once and for all.

The fact that so many people want this all to quietly go away is why we have so much of this crap happening in our culture. I don't think it should take much bravery or smarts to plainly say these things. They're afraid of saying one word against Trump or anyone like him like Moore. If a congressperson can't go out in public and say - this pedophile is bad and he must go - then they are a coward of the ugliest sort. I have no statement beyond that.

As for Bill Clinton. I agree that he shouldn't be celebrated like he is. I also don't think bad behavior is justified by pointing to other bad behavior. I always hate that both sides slogan, but you did clear it up nicely. Lecherous behavior is still lecherous behavior and it's not okay. We both 100% agree on that, I think, but the Trump support still bewilders me because he admitted on tape to regularly assaulting women he found beautiful.

Back to Bill. Also, while people say Hillary took too long to really stand behind LGBTQ rights like 90% of the democratic party, Bill Clinton really hosed us in so many ways and had a way of telling us it was for our own good. Meh. I will never forget this. After John Kerry lost, Bill went to a college campus and talked about why he lost and said that LGBTQ identity politics was a loser and that we should abandon going forward with seeking out rights for the foreseeable future. Screw him. The tide turned shortly after and he didn't see it coming. He was a pretty good President, but he was/is a horrible man in many ways and I just can't with him. His throwing LGBTQ people under the bus axed the last bit of anything I could ever feel for the man. There really wasn't much to begin with or left over after his many scandals.

One final thought, because I see this come up a lot in partisan postings. Both parties will go after the other no matter what they do or how well they do it. Truth. That's a fact of life that should NEVER factor into doing the right thing. It's a useless thing to say because it doesn't matter. A person only has integrity if they employ it when it's most difficult to do so.

One last PS.
I'm very glad we've been able to talk, even passionately, about this issue without personalizing that passion toward one another. That's the hardest to do when discussing politics. The people that say, "Let's just not talk about religion or politics." are wusses in my book. We've got to stand up for what we believe in and try to treat others with dignity and respect. Well, except for sexual abusers, but trying to keep one's composure while talking about the ugliness people do is also important. Just got to let you know that I value this.

 

[jvcarroll]

I hope this shows up. This is my favorite meme of the day.

 

[D'Snowth]

Today? That meme's been floating around ever since the accusations against Spacey came forward.

However, history has repeated itself again today:

TRUMP: Did you hack our election?
PUTIN: Nyet.
TRUMP: Okay.

The end!