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jvcarroll
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2012
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Yeah, I got into it this morning, but it was an interesting conversation that I valued very much. Ha. Also, I took a few days to unpack that huge post of yours so I had a lot brewing.Geesh Jamie, been busy today?Taking me forever to get caught up on all the posts today. Just a couple of quick things here that I feel I need to point out. I've selected these 2 paragraphs to address and maybe I'll get to the rest later
1) I think one needs to be careful about distinguishing between a Trump voter and a Trump supporter. Not everybody that voted for President Trump is necessarily a supporter. Now you may not agree with me but like you've always said, words matter. Hear me out. I classify a Trump supporter as the 25% (or whatever it's at now) in the approval ratings that continue to approve of the job he's doing. I know plenty of people that voted for President Trump but abhor him and his actions, tweets, etc. Their vote for President Trump wasn't so much a vote for him, but more of a vote against the system. Almost none of them turned a blind eye towards it. They see it. But people are fed up with Washington doing absolutely nothing for them. And that includes both Democrats and Republicans. People are absolutely fed up! And along comes somebody that represents blowing up Washington and how things are done. And, of course, his opponent represents everything that is wrong with Washington. People were faced with 2 choices. One had major flaws but represented something outside the establishment. The other they saw with flaws as well but represented Washington and everything that was wrong with it. People were fed up with the Bush's and Clinton's and their representation of establishment Washington. If one were to break down the voting numbers you saw it. Counties that voted for President Obama in the last 2 elections voted for President Trump. Areas that were traditionally Democratic swung to the Republicans. The union vote that usually went Dem went Republican. It happened all over. You continue to see it today. Last weekend there was a poll that came out regarding the approval ratings. To no one's surprise, the Republican's approval ratings were at an all-time low. But along with that, the Democrats approval rating was at an all time low! What's that tell you? So I'm not going to judge those that voted for President Trump and I think it's unfair of you to judge them as well. You even acknowledge that anger and say you get it. If you truly get it, you wouldn't judge them or cast aspersions on them. Now if you want to criticize or judge that 25% or whatever it is that continue to approve of his job, feel free. That's fair game. But be careful about grouping the two together. just my 2 cents
2) I think it's completely unfair of you to imply I'm being hypocritical regarding the name calling when you aren't even sure of what the incident was about or who it was or what was even said. (And for the record, no, it was not you). My complaint wasn't about being called a name. It was the terminology that was used. I wouldn't use those terms or accept ANYBODY using the terminology that was used. If you knew what was used I think you'd agree. Maybe I'll PM you the name of the person and what was said but, quite honestly, I'd be embarrassed to even type that term.
Concerning Trump support/voting. I get what you're saying, but as my record of not voting for Bill Clinton goes, you know I completely disagree with that. You support a candidacy, for whatever reason, you support the man. And this man obviously abused/abuses women in monstrous ways and friggin bragged about it. If had been your mother, your sister, your daughter that he'd grabbed by the privates or forced himself inside of, would you have still voted for him. When Bill Clinton ran, I just thought he had affairs. I didn't realize all of the boorish behavior. So I asked myself a softer question - would I vote for a person who cheats on his wife? I said no!
So, yeah. My bar is higher and I have a track record of letting Dems have it when they deserve it. I'm every bit as hard on them as I am on conservatives. Trump even walked in on teen girls while they were naked and bragged about it. In no world do I believe that it's ever okay to vote for someone like that. It's the same with the thing about Roy Moore. BTW, did you watch the movie Primary Colors. It's about the first Clinton run. The cynical theme it portrays is that they and the people who supported them believed that somehow the ends justified the means. It's gross. Almost as gross as an unwanted Al Franken tongue in your mouth. Eeeep!
I believe the White House and Moore supporters are complicit in supporting an immoral man who did some monstrous things so that he'll to what they believe to be righteous later on. I have no different stance on that than I do with Trump support. I can understand Trump supporters/voters trying to split hairs or make it about Hillary because that's what Trump himself does. It's the easy way out. Don't you think I wanted to make excuses for Franken and Rose? I won't do it. I've lived to long on this earth to know that supporting them is supporting the harassers in the very establishment that Trump voters claim to be against.
There were several candidates on the ticket and few people felt any of them were good enough. Integrity comes with a cost. Sometimes that cost is losing an election. Integrity means absolutely nothing if only employed when things are easy. It is perfectly fair to judge it that way. I've made that mistake too in some aspects of my life. I'm no saint. I believe everyone who voted for Trump is guilty of lacking integrity in that instance. I respect you and I hear you, but I just fundamentally disagree. I know you know what I'm saying about that and I have a feeling that you can respect that. Did you watch that video I posted about the reel of Trumps accusers/victims pre-election?
Also, thinking that Trump is anti-establishment is bewildering. He's tied to special interests even worse than any President in my lifetime. And, he has absolutely no experience in government - or really being successful a successful businessman beyond slapping his name on things when they go well, and blaming others when they don't. Everything his supporters felt was a strength has been wrong. It's all weakness as far this year. That's what's so bizarre about it. I never expected it to be this bad. I thought his rally BS was just an act and that he'd roll up his sleeves and dig into the job for the people who elected him. He's not done that at all. It's absolutely shameful. If Hillary had been as ineffective, I'd have grilled her for it too.
I'm not sure the namecalling instance you're talking about, but I hardly ever do that. Again, I have referred to Trump as an a** of sorts. I think he'd even agree with that and be proud of it. It's more of an accurate description than a blanket namecalling. If you don't see it that way, well, I'm not perfect. Trump, however, has turned schoolyard bullying into an artform and every single supporter seems to love him for it. When did we stop supporting the little guy? I guess people mistook Trump for the little guy. He'd be the first to set anyone who thought that straight! Speaking truth to power and calling it names isn't bullying in my estimation, and Trump has always been powerful. There is a difference. I don't have a dog in the fight over whatever the issue was with the namecalling thing on the forum, really. It wasn't between us, so it's a private matter between y'all. I'll respect that and your feelings on it.
Aside from that, I've really enjoyed this productive back and forth. I hope you have too. Yeah, do I think Trump supporters are accountable for electing someone who's known for this reprehensible behavior? Yes. Do I think people are irredeemable like Hillary Clinton does? NO! I think we all make bad choices for the wrong reasons that we thing are the right ones at the time. Electing Trump was one doozy of a bad choice and Hillary, along with the incompetent DNC, helped that along greatly!
