Arm Rods?

[shtick]

I went to see Stuffed and Unstrung on the 20th and noticed the arm rods on Brian Henson's alien puppet were bent like crazy.

You'd think that they'd have someone on staff fixing this stuff, but he put on an awesome performance, bent arm rods and all.

 

[Buck-Beaver]

Isn't the thiness of the rods something to take into consideration to minimize visibility

That's true sometimes, but usually you never have the puppet's arms very high so they shouldn't be very visible or distracting (a common mistake in puppetry - especially on-camera puppetry - is holding a puppet's arms unnaturally high). There are situations where that doesn't work of course, which is another reason to use music wire...you can get very thing, very strong hardened steel.

With most of the work I am doing now we do wire removal in post-production so to be honest I don't think about rod thickness much.

I went to see Stuffed and Unstrung on the 20th and noticed the arm rods on Brian Henson's alien puppet were bent like crazy.

I have seen TV puppets with rods made out of a strong, but flexible copper wire before. Seemed to work really well because it's flexible, but once it was bent it never really went completely straight again. Maybe they were something similar?

Also, those Stuffed and Unstrung puppets seems to have gotten a lot of use over the years.

 

[D'Snowth]

That's true sometimes, but usually you never have the puppet's arms very high so they shouldn't be very visible or distracting (a common mistake in puppetry - especially on-camera puppetry - is holding a puppet's arms unnaturally high).

I'm sure.

There are situations where that doesn't work of course, which is another reason to use music wire...you can get very thin, very strong hardened steel.

I guess I'll take that into consideration for future reference then.

With most of the work I am doing now we do wire removal in post-production so to be honest I don't think about rod thickness much.[/QUOTE]That kind of takes away a certain something from the puppets when that's done... I don't really know how to describe it...

 

[spcglider]

I use nothing but coat hanger wire. Its essentially free, it works just fine for my applications, and you don't bust a brain blood vessel trying to cut it with a wire nipper like you do with hardened steel rod. I actually LIKE it's bendability when we're trying to get a hand to move a certain way on camera around something or over something. If we permanently screw it up, it gets tossed in the metals recycle bin and replaced with another relatively disposable arm rod.

-Gordon

 

[spcglider]

And, yeah, if your character doesn't have a personality, professional grade materials don't mean squat!

I agree, but then again, I have issues with the idea of "professional grade materials".

I've seen handkerchief marionettes in a show that would tear your heart out. And I've seen extremely expensive puppets act like crap.

Context is key. I guess.

-G

 

[Buck-Beaver]

Something I wanted to add re: coat hanger wire is that there are different types of wire (I have at least 3 different kinds and I am sure there are many more). The coat hangers I get from a local cleaner are terrible and almost useless, but some older coat hangers that have been kicking around my house for years are thicker and not too bad.

I am a fan of music wire, but I think ultimately that the most important thing is do pick a material that works (and works for your budget).

..oh, that and be careful cutting hardened steel with wire cutters. Use bolt cutters and a vice grip instead!

 

[D'Snowth]

In regards to my previous statement about removing arm rods in post production... I THINK Sid and Marty Krofft might understand where I'm coming from...

Back in the 60s with the success of Topo Gigio the mouse on The Ed Sullivan Show, they tried to do an act overseas with "stringless" marionette (essentially little people in suits that would rip off their "strings"), and it ultimately bombed because apparently the audience liked seeing the strings.

So I guess it's really kind of the same thing with the arm rods, I would think people would like to see them as opposed to them being digitally removed.

 

[Melonpool]

I'm kind of on the fence about it as well. I find myself wondering a lot more about "How did they do that?" when I see Kermit with his rods digitally removed, which I never do when I watch the Muppet Show. I think it's a lot easier to enjoy the performance without everything being "perfect."

I think at the end of the day, no one truly believes that Kermit is a living breathing frog. But they do believe in him and his personality. If the performer sells it, the audience will buy it. No matter how perfect the creation looks, if the performance is bad, no one will give it a chance. Think about Jar Jar Binks -- he was a great special effect (for the time), but who wants to see him?

One other thing you might think about is The Muppet Movie, which was made in an era before computer rod removal. I've watched that film probably a million times, but have never seen a rod in it. I'm not saying that they're not there -- but the manipulation and editing was so tight, that I've never noticed them.

As I said, I'm still on the fence whether to remove rods on the film I'm working on now. I'm focusing more on the performance.

 

[D'Snowth]

I'm kind of on the fence about it as well. I find myself wondering a lot more about "How did they do that?" when I see Kermit with his rods digitally removed, which I never do when I watch the Muppet Show. I think it's a lot easier to enjoy the performance without everything being "perfect."

I think at the end of the day, no one truly believes that Kermit is a living breathing frog. But they do believe in him and his personality. If the performer sells it, the audience will buy it. No matter how perfect the creation looks, if the performance is bad, no one will give it a chance. Think about Jar Jar Binks -- he was a great special effect (for the time), but who wants to see him?

That's exactly how I feel about it... I mean sure, if EVERYTHING was "perfect" about the end results, naturally I would be impressed, but in all honest, I'm just interested in a good performance, even if it has flaws... even if rods are visible... even if you can see the strings... even if maybe the top of someone's head is seen in frame for a couple of seconds.

One other thing you might think about is The Muppet Movie, which was made in an era before computer rod removal. I've watched that film probably a million times, but have never seen a rod in it. I'm not saying that they're not there -- but the manipulation and editing was so tight, that I've never noticed them.

I wonder if maybe there was an experiment with some kind of mech to move the arms... take Blotch from KSY for example, his arms didn't have rods, but rather, they seemed to move via some kind of mech that John Kennedy worked just below the puppet's belly.

 

[Buck-Beaver]

I think taking out rods is mostly an aesthetic choice. It certainly isn't necessary most of the time and I don't think the general audience cares one way or the other most of the time. At work we have two films being prepped and in one the rods are not being taken out because it was decided that keeping the rods visible fits with the design and aesthetic of that film.

One of the reasons I am really pro rod removal is because most of the puppetry I am involved in is Bunraku-style with three or four people performing a single puppet, so if we weren't removing rods, rigging and often puppeteers from shots there would be big, ugly rods and bodies dressed in black and green spandex in the background of all the shots (honestly, it's a pain to shoot that way, but you can achieve some really cool effects).

All of the newer Muppet films (since Treasure Island I think?) have had rods erased. I've heard that they've gone back and erased them in the newer DVD releases of the classic Muppet films, but I have never actually checked myself.