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Controversial Topics

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ryhoyarbie, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. ryhoyarbie Active Member

    I want to see some controversial topics on here. I know this is a "G" rated, family oriented/ kid friendly site and I have no problem with that, I just want to see some more interesting topics besides things that address new movies, or television shows you watch, or the weather. However, I think if I created a topic, say about the family shipping their adopted child back to Russia or a thread about unemployment, it might get deleted.
  2. D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    Well Ryan, the problem is anytime we try to have such a topic, one of the mods ends up closing/deleting in the blink of an eye... it's kind of gotten ridiculous too, this past fall thread closures were increasing to such proportions, that some members actually begged moderation to STOP closing threads all the time.

    Unfortunately, we'll never be able to really talk about controversial topics, let alone touchy subjects, because of the inevitable thread closures... that's just the way MC is.
  3. RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    To be honest, I go elsewhere for "serious" debates/discussions. Not to dismiss the conversations I have here, but it's been my experience that only in fanfiction or in certain games can the sense of taste be pushed to its boundaries. I'm trying to branch out more since I quit playing games as I got tired of talking to myself, but I'm going to continue writing essays and fanfiction here.

    I kinda wish there was a private "mature" board on this forum. I recently joined a Labyrinth forum that has one that is password protected. That would keep the little innocent ones away and we adults or mature non-adults could have serious discussions.
  4. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    You want a controversial discussion about unemployment, huh?

    Brief rundown, corporations own our immortal souls, and it's been that way for decades now, and it all imploded at once, so one of the few people who weren't 100% responsible for it gets in charge, can't fix it fast enough, and takes all the blame, basically setting the stage for more people to do the same thing and give us brief initial growth and massive negative long term ramifications... to which someone ELSE will try to fix it, and then takes all the blame, leading to more of the same leading to more of the same leading to more of the same.

    Basically the only controversy is everyone's either greedy, an idiot or both.
  5. RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Personally, I go with both. I believe people profit off of things vital to the health of the nation when they should be considered vital to national security. We gripe about shortages of certain types of workers and then when students graduate, you fill up your job postings with "must have experience" (my experience getting a job). We expect failing companies to survive, not out of usefulness, but out of tradition. We boast of innovation while teaching in classrooms the same way it's been done largely since antiquity. We confuse "education innovation" with putting a couple of computers in a classroom and letting students type their papers. These are usually the same kids who can program their cellphones and play complex video games. We value "glamorous" jobs and denigrate the blue-collar stuff as if a CEO is going to clean his own trash can.
  6. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Let's not forget the blue collar stuff usually gets shipped to another country so they can cheat the system and pay whatever they want and offer no benefits. But that's another story all together.

    Problem is all the jobs your supposed to get after college fill up the day after graduation, and it's only for people who work during every single summer and half the time during the semester. I had trouble finding off time work, and it bit me so hard on the butt that I've been steadily looking for a crap dead end job for YEARS now.

    Then we get into the private stuff. A lot of these managers higher good looking desk candy in some cases, other cases the manager highers their idiot slacker friends or people they'd want to hang out with. I've been there. If only I wasn't so poor that I had to commute, I'd probably gotten something for being someone's drinking buddy at college. Sad thing is, even if you want a crummy pay off the student loan for a week of a month's work type deal, it's very much like that episode of "The Middle" where the slacker son keeps falling butt backwards into employment while the father is killing himself to find something temporary.

    Then again, there are the kinds of people who WANT to go to college to do something (myself included) and even if I had to take a blue collar job, or something worse which i could have easily got if I dropped out of high school, it doesn't pay off the loan. For me personally, the career I wanted to get into is dying like no one's business... why do you think I'm so angry at self righteous jerk groups like "Commercial Free Childhood? that are heckbent on killing kid's television" I'd be happy fetching coffee for animators the rest of my life. But everyone wants to go into that field, and there's nothing left. I could very well start an indie comic (I have ideas), but I'm afraid of the late 80's indie crash happening again just as I finish the first issue. Plus, I need a LOT of money for supplies to get startes, and frankly, I've been stuck in the "trying to get a temp job to get computer programs and paint to get started" stage for years.
  7. frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Just my take on things...

    The eventual break down of tolerance and mutual respect for opinion is the reason for the absence of controversial topics on Muppet Central. We've tried and I hope that we can improve those lines of communication, but right now topics are much more tightly controlled.

    My views on the world are inclusive.

    I'm not a Republican, Independent or a Democrat, yet I enjoy political debate to some extent. My basic viewpoint is whatever gives everyone an equal opportunity at living their life to the fullest.

    I'm not a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Buddhist, but respect those who are. Religious tolerance doesn't always work that same way as I feel some of those are more condescending toward others than accepting of them. But again, that's not everybody or even the majority. Most people are very accepting of others without a heavy-handed need to indoctrinate others into their way of thinking.

    Some examples of my views:

    The idea that and or all religion is evil and should be banned for a better society is ludicrous and could never happen. Sure, some religious folk do try to enforce how other people should live, but that’s not really the majority.

    The idea that gays should have limited rights because they don’t fit an arbitrary model of family is equally ludicrous. Hey, that’s not everybody’s idea for how to raise their family, but even in “traditional” family arrangements there are vastly different ideas. Everyone should be given a fair shot at things without the encroachment of neighbors or the government.

    As for public schools – they should be places where young people are exposed to many varying viewpoints. That can be tricky and many liberal and conservative agendas have been pushed at young people in that context. Humans are fallible no matter what age or social standing. Endorsements of particular beliefs should come from the home! The only endorsement schools should teach kids is to respect the rights of others with whom they disagree. That’s it.
    -----

    In a nutshell, I think we will all live richer lives if we listen to one another to gain understanding and respect everybody's right to live and thrive under their individual beliefs. It is also important to know that one group's existence should not limit the rights of others and we can all live and believe as we wish in our own homes.

    We all deserve rights, love and respect. They haven’t seemed to figure out how best to implement that anywhere else and so I think it will be a while before we can practice much of it at Muppet Central.
  8. Fozzie Bear Moderator

    Seriously, you want to have controversial topics on a MUPPET FAN FORUM? What's fun in that? You should want to come here to escape the woes of the world, not find it amidst the discussion of our favorite fleece and furry friends.

    No. It never works. There is always a flame war that breaks out. Feelings get hurt. You know how it goes because we've already seen all that happen before. Then, moderation has to shut it down and that raises the fur on the backs of those who consider us a gestapo in a forum where the membership has more freedom than any other forum out there.

    Yes, if you post about the adopted child being shipped back to Russia or some other such thing then it will be deleted. There are websites out there to discuss that kind of topic--not this one.

    It's a lot more fun to talk about other topics that are Muppety in nature and family friendly, which is what this forum is about. I would suggest if you want controversial topics then go sign up on cnn.com or msn.com and discuss things in those forums.

    At least let MC remain the one last place we fans can go for some relaxation from the woes of the real world and escape, for just a few moments, into a fantasy world.

    Of course, this is my take on things. Phil, who owns the site, may have a different take on it. But, you know me: If it was said or discussed on The Muppet Show, Sesame Street or Fraggle Rock it's game here.
  9. ryhoyarbie Active Member

    I can see why things might get a little crazy with some topics like religion, politics (debating politics is always a bad idea because no one ever wins), etc. etc., but I respect everyone's opinion (although it isn't the norm for other sites when someone tries to give their opinion on something and are bashed and ridiculed). seen it plenty of times at sites like imdb.com.


    However, I would like to add what has been touched on about unemployment. Greed has really corrupted the people who head companies such as AIG and Goldman Sachs. My father used to work for AT&T and they would always lay off workers who's salaries were getting to big. Then they would hire new workers and pay them peanuts to do a job while the ceo and all of his big shot suit friends would earn millions of dollars. The top brass claimed they needed to save money, so they would use that excuse to lay off people and hire new people cheap.

    I've been reading up on the unemployment in this country and how people are resorting to getting any kind of job. However, a lot of these people are trying to get jobs they're overqualified for because nothing else is available, but they're not getting those jobs simply because they're overqualified. Some of those people are dumbing down their resume and deleting jobs, degrees, certifications just to try to get an interview for some odd job. Meanwhile you have people giving themselves and their top people millions of dollars worth in bonuses. This is really sad. It reminds me of the medieval times where you had kings, queens, lords, and knights and then you had everyone else who were nothing more than peasants. Sadly, this is what the United States seems to be heading towards.
  10. ryhoyarbie Active Member

    I just think this place would be more interesting if you had different topics besides what you have here in the general section. Maybe more people who haven't been around in a while would start coming here and add their two cents on something.

    But yes I do agree that these kinds of topics are a reflection of a reality a lot of people want to forget about when they come here, or imdb.com, or maybe youtube.com.
  11. frogboy4 Inactive Member

    There are threads in the general discussion area here that proselytize the Christian religion in one way or another so it becomes a slippery slope of what is cherry-picked as acceptable. Would a member’s post of their first Ramadan experience be acceptable? If not, then why is Islam singled out?

    It comes down to whose comfort zone we’re protecting and Muppet Central turns a blind eye. I agree that this should be a Muppety place so religious and politically themed general discussions topics should be kept to a minimum.

    I just wish there was more content on the main pages here to talk about. When the forum's all we have left members become very protective of their turf.
  12. frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Either way...wouldn't it be great if people were more like Muppets...different and crazy, yet still found a way to get along? :crazy: :attitude: :concern:
  13. D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    Well now, I wouldn't say that...

    Granted yeah, there has been incidents where moderation has been frowned upon, ala the thread closing spree I mentioned earlier, but really, the Gestapo? That's a little extreme even for here... I know the point you're trying to get across Kev.

    I have to say though, in all honesty? I must disagree with the freedom of membership here as opposed to other forums out there; granted, I've seen my share of other forums, and I gotta tell you, there's a LOT more freedom out there than there is in here, HOWEVER, from my personal experiences, it's never for the better. I've seen forums that have no rules whatsoever, it's almost like being in MAD Magazine's playground - if there are newbies at these forums who obviously aren't as knowledgable in the fanbase as some of the more hardcore members, they'll gang up on the new guys, and ridicule them and harass them to no end... and since there's no rules, they get away with murder... and often times, it's the newbies, that did nothing wrong, that get punished with bannishment, on the grounds that they instigated the trouble and brought it on themselves.

    That said, I've also seen my share of heat amongst the moderation in itself... case in point is a forum that I moderate, but don't post at anymore. The forum has a staff of seven - the webmistress who owns the site, two assistant admins (one who manages the forum layout, design, etc, while the other manages the boards and staff), then two practical/level-headed moderators such as myself and a friend of mine, then two slacker moderators that the second assistant admin hired to "buy love", because one of them is his girlfriend, and the other is her sister. Now then, the webmistress has a pretty heavy worklife and full plate, so she doesn't see a lot of what's going on, and the first assistant admin doesn't get on hardly either, so really, the only active staff are the mods themselves and the second assistant admin - the second assistant admin has "problems" I won't delve into, so he actually likes to see things get stirred up on the forums, and since he's got two mods on his side (the gf and the sister), they tend to be the antagonists of the forum, while myself and my friend take it upon ourselves to set things straight, because as forum staffers, they don't set a good example for the forum itself. As far as religion and politics are concerned, not too long ago, we strictly forbad religious and political discusssion on the forum to avoid anyone from either side, whether they're religious or not, whether they're Republican or Democrat, from being offended... it wasn't long after that the threesome broke that very rule by harassing one of young members for her religious views - again, here are an assistant admin and two mods ganging up on a member, harassing her for her religious views, when we took a vote to prohibit such discussion. When my fellow mod friend and I tried to interfere, we were brushed off and the flaming continued; so we actually had to bring this to the webmistress's attention to put a stop to the chaos, because it got so ridiculous. In a way, that's a bit of Fascism right there, because this assistant admin has pretty much warped this girlfriend of his and her sister into mirror images of himself, so when he gets things stirred up, and the other two get in on it, there's a whole flood of a mess right there... and because he not only has more powers than the rest of us, but also has the practical/fair side outnumbered three to two, and with the webmistress having her busy schedule, things get hairy. That said, to make themselves happy, the three of them opened a "debate board" for such topics... so again, that's really being hypocritical of a rule that was set to avoid such discussion. Really, that was the only rule we had at that forum, and it was broken like a wax record. And if you all can believe this, I'm talking about a Chipmunks forum. That's right... a forum for a franchise that's targeted at family-friendly audiences much like the Muppets, and this forum is pretty much a free-for-all; though I will say this, save for our share of the occasional trolls, our members are generally mature, well-behaved, and civilized with each other... it's the saddisticness of a poorly elected assistant admin, and the free passes he handed to his girlfriend and her sister that like to stir things up, which doesn't set a good example for the forum.

    Now Muppet Central on the other hand, I wouldn't say the members here have more freedom than other forums out there, BUT unlike these other forums, we have rules that are enforced, and if people don't abide by the rules, there are consequences; when you have forums that have no rules and the members are free to run as much amok as they can, you've literally got virtual rubber rooms. Muppet Central is a controlled environment, and as such, the way the community has been well-kept and disciplined makes up for no boundaries and COMPLETE freedom... because let's face it, with as large as this community is, if there was no rules, no boundaries, and complete freedom, just imagine how horrible this place would be? It'd probably be no different than a lot of other forums I've seen my share of.

    Don't mean to argue with you in any way Kev, and again, I see the points you're making, but I still wanted to share my half-a-cent's worth of experience.
  14. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    This basically all points back to deregulation (started by a certain ultra-beloved president that shall remain nameless), and I think that EVERY company out there is run by people so blind, stupid and greedy that they'd drop a bag of hundred dollar bills to snatch a penny before anyone else can pick it up. These places kept growing and growing in the 90's, and even as a kid/teenager I realized that all these bank fees and megamergers aren't good. The problem is there have been bad decisions (in some cases negligence) from every President for the past 30+ years that lead to short term growth, and then years and years of horrible losses. This is basically all the stuff Teddy Roosevelt defeated in his brief 4 year term... all the stuff he was deadset against came back and bit us hard.

    And then there's the vicious cycle on the retail end, they raise prices when things are good, then when things go sour, they raise prices some more to make up for the losses, leading to bigger losses, leading to more price increases to cover the losses from raising prices for recouping losses.

    Which brings me to my a-political point... money IS evil. Not even money, just the human (animal?) primal concept of greed. Doesn't matter if its gold, paper bills, or large tracts of land. This has always been around and it's always caused misery, especially to the not as greedy people who just want to live there lives. They get in the middle, they get killed, they get screwed. Problem is, no one ever thinks about it and blames the WRONG people and basically wind up getting more of the people who help to feed this beast with the people's flesh and blood.

    That said, the problem with everything is that most people tend to see black and white, when I (and I bet there are others who feel the same) tend to see everything as gray. There's a lot of bad and a lot of good in everything (or at least most things) and there's a long detailed reason for even the rashest decisions... no one wants to take the whatever the heck pill and go down the rabbit hole... they just like their soundbites and obnoxious pundits. And that's why everything is so heated and nasty these days.
  15. RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    I get what you're saying, I really do. However, like I said, a password-protected board would keep the morons out and the wee ones out. Furthermore, this site is NOT just about the fuzzy characters. You have boards for the other properties, like the creature properties (Farscape, Labyrinth, Dark Crystal, etc). Chamberlain, much as I love him, isn't exactly warm and fuzzy goodness. Just as members are free to go to the franchise boards that float their boat, members should also be able to have a discussion about something more involved than a commercial about soap, so to speak. I like escapism just like the next person, but some of us can only take so much sugar in our diet. Some of us actually LIKE the darker properties of the beloved Henson. I think we can handle discussing problems of the day.
    I don't mind a company that has to trim the fat to survive. However, it just really irks me when it's obvious the top rungs of the ladder decide THEY aren't the fat. It's THEIR company. The janitor didn't run the company into the ground. The receptionist didn't. It was THEIR greed, THEIR policies that proved foolish -- and they get gazillions of dollars. It's like when business griped to Washington that they HAVE to reward their top people to keep them. I just want to scream: YOUR BUSINESS IS IN THE TOILET! THESE ARE YOUR BEST PEOPLE?
    I, too, dislike free-for-alls. I do admire the attempts to keep things under control here. I just wish there was less arbitrariness to respecting wishes.
    It's at least a primate thing, from what I've been reading over at Scientific American Mind. :)
    And these same morons like to get on TV or the newspaper or the internet and lecture US about economic theory....
  16. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    That's the trouble, I think... every company out there is run by foolish, greedy, incompetent and or shifty types. I swear that every company is run by some rich old guy's halfwit son. And I don't mean just banks... everything from them to the entrainment industry. And Honestly, I feel that they put us in a horrible no win situation... whether the government gave them money or let them fail, nothing good was going to come out of it. And when you have to make a choice between blowing taxpayer money or letting the second Great Depression happen, you know you're doomed. I tend to think of these places like giant monsters. You either feed them and keep them happy at your own expense or they'll take us all down with them.

    What boggles me is that ANYONE thinks that corporations are trustworthy on any level. I trust the government far more than I trust corporations, and that says something. You give them tax cuts to free up money and higher more workers and invest in new technologies... what do you think happens to that money? They stuff it right back into their profits and say "OOh look! This was our best year." when they haven't sold a blasted thing. And yet you raise taxes for them and they drop hundreds and thousands of jobs. Corporations are about getting the most money with the least amount of effort. They would gladly overturn that silly communist ban on not having slaves and charge a billion dollars for a lightbulb if they could. They work outside the system. And if they screw up, they'll take people down with them.

    So basically you have to feed the beast or it will kill you. It doesn't matter whos in power, whos side anyones on... they'll make sure they spend thousands of dollars to make an extra buck. They'll pay politicians and pundits to say "Minimum wage increase BAD!" the same amount they'd spend on actual wage increases. They'll spend millions of dollars in PR saying they aren't satan, buying advertisements saying their cheaply made cars are safe and their investing in green technologies, and not actually doing any of that for the same amount of money. No matter anyone does, we're doomed.
  17. RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Heheheh ...

    Public (is grabbed by the giant furry and fanged corporate monster, timidly): Please don't. Please don't do it.

    Corporation (thumps Public with a giant carrot): STAND BY ME! Omnomnomnom!

    LOL ...
  18. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Heheh that's it exactly. They force the government to give them money, and they spend half of it to pay people to say how wrong it was for the government to help them so they can elect the same people who let the same things happen over and over without regulation. You can corral the monster into a cage, you can't defeat it, but you can make it slightly smaller.

    And unfortunately, we have an oil slick haired ex-actor to thank for all this. That's the only clues I'm giving.
  19. dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    I have said this before but I feel that if America wants to fix it's self with unempolyment, and health care, and debt that it need to invest in it's self. Make it easier for small bussness to open, and stay open. insteed of makeing all our goods over seas open plants and such in our local towns. basicly bulid America back up.

    As for Health Care I feel that there should be a plan made up that is simple. Not everyone needs the same kind of heath care. If they are going to make it mandatory for us to have it here is how it should work.


    1. Make a price list for the differnt types of people, from Age, Gender, and Health needs.

    2. Make it where you have to see a doctor every year

    3. The monthy payments that you make go into like a "bank" if you do not need any medical tremnet it gets stored up and keeps adding up for when you need to use the funds they are there.

    Now some of this seems a little shaky but that is a start.
  20. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I never want to discuss health care... but here's what I have to say..

    We whine about how evil Big tobacco and big food are, but the real big villains are big health (the insurance and pharmaceutical industries) and big oil... Big money too (banks)... but stuff we really have NO choice in having to buy. Food and Tobacco are all about choice.. Food's tricky because while everyone says "you say you can't afford to eat organic, but you can't afford not to." And frankly, the thing that's killing everyone, forcing them to eat the garbage they're eating is the fact that they don't get a living wage and can barely afford the processed swill they have to eat. Even then those two are somewhat a matter of choice.

    But oil and health care are run by greedy magnates that would make the mafia blush. We have to buy both. That's the one beast we constantly feed and can't do anything about. And they make sure they have a good amount of politicians in their pockets for their protection.

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