1. Welcome to the Muppet Central Forum!
    You are viewing our forum as a guest. Join our free community to post topics and start private conversations. Please contact us if you need help with registration or your account login.

  2. Sesame Street Season 45
    Sesame Street's 45th season officially begins Monday September 15. After you see the new episodes, post here and let us know your thoughts.

  3. "Muppets Most Wanted" Fan Reactions
    After you see "Muppets Most Wanted", read fan reactions and let us know your thoughts on the Muppets eighth theatrical film.

Did Jareth change Toby's diaper?

Discussion in 'Fantasy Worlds' started by Monsoon, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    It's fun to try ;).

    Meh, total girl power is overrated, I'd much rather see chivalry and gentlemanly respect come back into fashion :). I think it is the nature of love to give up some power to the other person, to truly rely on one another in a selfless way... To me codepeniticy (sp?) is not a dirty word that you need mental help for :)...
    But then, I was raised by a very old-fashion family...I'm proud of that though :3
  2. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Well, it was fun for awhile. But nothing lasts forever, heh.

    Gentlemanly respect would be wonderful! And codependancy is great too. I'm just not sure Jareth knows the meaning of the word, hehe. ;)

    I guess my background is a strange mixture of old fashioned and hippie, lol. At least that's what I've been told.

    "And I've kept yelling since I first commenced it, I'm against it!" ;)
  3. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    My parents weren't hippies, my daddy fought in 'Nam and my ma was an office worker for the army and they when around europe on a motorcycle half braking the law...
    To think I could have been born in Germany *sighs*

    Anyhow, back on topic (or back on off topic that is somehow related to the topic because it relates to how Jareth and Sarah's relationship could be seen) I've never been a fan of hardcore women's lib "You have no power over me!" thinking. Maybe it's because I felt like Sarah never really gave Jareth's love a chance and was just stereotyping him. *hugs the Jareth*
  4. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    It's a strange world; some people say I'm very conservative. Then others say I'm insanely liberal. It's just interesting how people can have such difference perspectives, you know? Hehe :)

    I hope I'm not too hard core women's lib, since I don't agree with everything they say. I just hope I respect all human beings and their right to dignity and freedom. That doesn't make love any less real. :)

    Jarth doesn't say, hey let's obey each other. He's asking the girl to obey him first, and THEN he'll obey her, lol. Though I will say for him, you have to adore his disapointed expression at the end, man Bowie rocks! Hehe :flirt:
  5. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    I think the 'obey' thing was more of his way of saying 'love'. It also seemed to me like he was really saying 'Actually seriously look at my love as a person.' and Sarah was like '"OMG you said obey you evil evil man! I didn't even listen to the rest of it because you stole my brother (even though I asked you to, and even though it was only a game)! YOU HAVE NO POWER OVER ME! (Never mind that I'll probably never find a magical handsome guy that truly loves me with his whole soul like you again in a million years!"
    Grrr..*sigh* Even if he hadn't looked like David Bowie I would have said yes :p.
  6. anytimepally

    anytimepally Active Member

    This is my favorite Labyrinth question ever :p .. and I don't think Jareth would've changed the diapers himself.. he had lackeys for that, probably someone's only duty.. (hehe)
  7. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Well, I'm sure Sarah eventually found someone. And I'm sure he was ten times more generous, deep and less manipulative than Jareth. ;)

    In a fantasy world, I'd have Jareth's poster on my wall, but I'd end up with Hoggle, lol. (He is the one who actually did change. ;) )

    Relationships are great, but they aren't guaranteed to last. You have to protect yourself and think of yourself too, otherwise you're very lost after a breakup, at least initially. (I am speaking from some experience heh)
  8. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    Meh, you sure have a lot of faith in the real world. I really really don't see that happening :p. I think Sarah gave up any hope of that when she stopped believing in a large part of herself to be 'grown up'. That is just asking for a life of giving into peer pressure and not not being true to yourself IMHO, and that is never good for finding a nice guy, let alone one that puts Jareth to shame :\.

    Although, I am not one of those very jaded fans that thinks that Sarah would only end up with a boyfriend that beats her, that is just going too far IMHO :\

    Actually, Jareth did change. But then, I never liked Hoggle that much, even after he did change. Sure he was brave but who is to say Jareth didn't just let him be? I think Jareth had every control over all the ceartures in the labyrinth and he was the one holding the puppet stings for all Sarah's friends, and not just when they were doing evil...
    So in a way every change in the labyrinth was Jareth's, if you look deeper than just the type of character he comes off as, which is more the character Sarah wanted him to be than who he really is IMHO


    I know that but I still don't do it, it just isn't me. Heartbreak just makes for too much good writing I guess :)
  9. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I used to be more cynical, and I still think you need to be on your guard in the real world. But the thing is, there's both good and bad in the world. And you have to fight the bad. But to deny the good would be wrong. The real world is what we make it, no more, no less. And it takes guts to help create the good (including writing stories which is great). :)

    And yes, giving into peer pressure and losing your identity isn't a great way to meet a good guy. But sometimes trying too hard to be different and doing the unexpected can also lead to the wrong guy (again, I see both of these instances all the time). Basically both extremes are no good. I think it's best to stop thinking so much about the world, whether you're embracing or rebelling against it, and just think for yourself.

    Oh I agree, heartbreak is great for writing and it's good to use your own experiences! It's just that, you're a living, breathing special human, and your well-being is more important than words on a page. After all they wouldn't exist without you. ;)

    Kermit always cares more about his friends, than any movie or play they do. Again, fantasy should encourage you to make a difference in the world, not hide from it because it's flawed. Not saying I'm always great at this, but that is the idea.

    This is an interesting discussion!
  10. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    But thinking about those sort of things is thinking for myself, very much in fact...

    But hanging onto what makes you different, even in the face of everyone saying 'grow up' isn't trying too hard, it's staying true to who you are. It's not really hiding from the real world because you still see that world, it's just being more picky than most people about how you see it :). Everyone thinks of hiding as something different, to me fantasy is life, so I don't see it as hiding. The way I see it there are plenty of people doing the everyday way of seeing things, they wouldn't miss Sarah if she never joined that crowd, or me for that matter ;).
    True, I made the words. But words have a way of outliving even the oldest person. They have a life all their own and will last somehow even in memory as ideas somewhere, even if they are never published. In this way I really do think words and ideas are much more important than myself, because they are not limited to myself. They really do have more worth to me than myself, they always have...
    That's why Sarah's story is such a sad one to me.
    Anyone can decide to 'grow up' but the ones that don't, even if some many think of them as backward or odd, are the ones that truly see the depth of the ideas of life. That extra something, beyond just the idea of magic, that not many people stop to notice :)
  11. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    I'm reminded of Meg in the Phantom of the Opera. In the movie version, it seems obvious to me that she loves the Phantom on first sight...and yet she never gets to meet him, because he is in love with Christine who ultimately rejects him.

    I like to think that Meg went after him...
  12. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    *perks up ears* Ack, movie version of Phantom..so..off..key...or not of key, flat, that is the word. I was in singing many years and have seen it live to but anyhow...

    But what reminds you of Meg? The 'all or nothing' love idea ? Or the' if I can't have you I would rather be lonely forever and get a good song out of it' idea?

    Now that I think of it, I could so come up with a fanfic of a musical version of Labyrinth:excited: *adds to the list of fic ideas*
  13. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    As far as people versus things, the only thing I can say is, don't cry for something that can't cry for you.

    But it's true that words often outlive their authors and that's great. :)

    Most things in this world I think are achieved by balance. You can't be a total sell out, yet neither can you be so rebellious you reject everything. Artists are often convinced they need to be rebellious and take drugs (for instance) in order to be creative, because it means they're different and outside the norm. In reality, their need to be so different just makes their art suffer. They don't realize they can be very different and creative just by respecting themselves in the first place.

    We've lost many artists (and their potential work) over the years because they tried a little too hard to reject the world and didn't take care of themselves. It's good and important to be different, but you have to take care of the vessel the work comes from, yourself. :)

    "Pain is a fact of life in this fallen world, and we cannot escape it. In fact, the goal in life is not to get away from the pain of it, but to endure through it, in fact, to triumph over it, while learning the lessons only pain can teach us."
  14. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    Meh, I always have cried for things over people because things have always be one of the few things I can really count on, people on the other hand hardly ever are there for me. And let me tell you this, it was for not lack of trying on my part, and yes it was with just about every person I have known so I am not just looking at the cup half empty:\.
    I'll take my things and ideas thank you very much :). Just because we cope in different ways does not I think, make one way better than the other. If everyone agreed, the world would be a boring place...
    Who said anything about using drugs? I know I didn't...
    Anyhow...Many of them, I really don't think it was that they rejected the world, I think it was just the other way around. They took so much of the world into themselves, so much of what others thought, that they simply could not handle it anymore. If they did not care about the world they would not take the issues of it so to heart IMHO. Weather they felt they were giving too much or too little of themselves was based in the end I think from listening to their peers wishes that they live up to the name they made for themselves. It was this pressure I think, that stopped many from doing anything about their basic needs.

    And on the other hand, like I said before, it can simply not be about rejecting or taking in the outside world at all, it is just a matter of putting your art before yourself period. Foolish? Maybe. A shorter life? Perhaps. Worth it for some? I think so. Selfish? Without a doubt. But without short lived authors and their selfishness and wanting to write for writings sake we would not have many of the classics we do today. Telling those people "don't put so much of yourself into your art and think of yourself or you won't live as long" would be like asking fish not to swim, it just doesn't work that way for them...

    Sarah could have been a great writer if she had put her mind to it, and even if the labyrinth had not changed her a bit, I think she would at the least been more of a friend than anything to Toby later in life. That is ten times better than how I have seen many siblings interact when they are older :p

    That's all well and good if the pain is a minor passing thing, but if it strikes us at our core and lives within us everyday, then it is not so much a matter of over coming it as living with it. Some things simply don't go away ever.
  15. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Everyone has pain, period. All the time, every minute. Without exception, no one is spared. And I will not judge who has worse pain than someone else. It takes more guts to live with it, triumph over it, and remain positive despite it. Which I'm sure you have.

    The moment we decide something can't be overcome, then it definitely won't be.

    And I'm personally angry at all those artists who deprived us their work when they were gone because they didn't respect themselves more than their work. And many of them who survived say they did indeed fall to peer pressure--the peer pressure to be too different (as a reaction to the sell out world of course and that is understandable). There's peer pressure to be a sell out, and to be different. It's best to ignore both.

    Nice talking, it has been an interesting discussion, that I couldn't have had with a thing! ;)
  16. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    Well, being different is not always something that is done to fit in with peers that also are different, sometimes is something we do alone, not caring if we do or don't fit in anywhere :)... I think I don't seek out like minded people in real life as much not because I think I think I am one of a kind or something great, but because I would rather not be judged by them...That is one of the worst feelings IMHO :(.
    Well, relying on things to keep you sane over people, and talking to things and having them answer back are two different levels of being crazy all together *lol*

    Like if Sarah had really only been in her room the whole time, talking to the puppet that looked like Jareth and hearing his voice, that would have been scary.
  17. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Of course it is, that's my opinion too. I hate being judged by people. But I love having the chance to prove them wrong even more! :halo:

    Lol, how true that is.

    Well actually I think that was the point of the scene with her and the junk lady. All the things that had mattered so much to her were inanimated toys and books. No matter how real Jareth and others seem, they are ultimately a fantasy. They weren't real like her brother, who needed her. And while she was being reuinted with her childhood toys, she was being distracted from saving her brother. She was ensuring that the world would become a darker place because she wasn't living in it or trying to save it.

    It's important to have the freedom to be yourself. But that shouldn't be more important than caring for others, especially the innocent.

    I don't think we're hear to be free of pain forever. We're here to improve the real world so we don't have to find it so dreadful.

    And believe me, I'm a big fan of collecting childhood memories! ;)
  18. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    Says the movie at least, on the surface..but I like to think it meant more than that. Perhaps, if the story had been written from a different angle, as in your past, fantasy, and items you hold dear are not enemies you must outgrow that hold you down into the darkness of being a Hateful Selfish Person That Will Never Amount to Anything or Care For Anyone But Yourself (TM), but can help you as a part of you. For a movie trying to go against the idea of all or nothing, it really was very all or nothing in the end IMHO if you go by the plain up front message.

    But anyway, that's why I like to think the labyrinth was a real place and not just a dream Sarah had. In makes a lot of sense of you think about it, if the labyrinth is a place that adapts itself to each person that visits it, rather than being limited to one girl who lets go of her past to become a "nice normal" person :p. It just has too much depth to be just from her IMHO...
  19. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Honestly, it's like we saw a different movie, hehe. Never once did I think Sarah ended up a "nice normal person". And I think it meant a great deal under the surface. We just clearly got something entirely different out of it. :)
  20. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    I guess so...
    I think Labyrinth just pushed a lot of those very old grade school buttons to me, almost like it was talking to me directly. And that Sarah, who they were trying to say somehow was me on some level just did everything I won't do on every level. Much yelling at the tv set the first time I saw it :mad:...


Share This Page

Buy the Muppets Most Wanted Blu-ray and Save 43%!