1. Welcome to the Muppet Central Forum!
    You are viewing our forum as a guest. Join our free community to post topics and start private conversations. Please contact us if you need help with registration or your account login.

  2. Sesame Street Season 45
    Sesame Street's 45th season officially begins Monday September 15. After you see the new episodes, post here and let us know your thoughts.

  3. "Muppets Most Wanted" Fan Reactions
    After you see "Muppets Most Wanted", read fan reactions and let us know your thoughts on the Muppets eighth theatrical film.

I miss the real Kermit

Discussion in 'Muppet Appearances' started by Randall Flagg, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Yes... BUUUT... let's not forget he was the most concerned when the Bird went missing in the end. There is always that element of Oscar, sure... but I think Carol took a character that would potentially just growl and say "leave me alone" every so often, and created a real deep character... same thing he did when Big Bird was just a doofus with a Clem Kaddidlehopper voice... he completely changed the character, and I think for the better.

    Honestly, I still think it was a case of a temporary emergency fill in than a case of replacement. We still don't know all the details, but even then I doubted it was a permanent thing.
  2. Frogpuppeteer

    Frogpuppeteer Well-Known Member

    I think what we gotta try to realize is characters can't stay the same over a number of years, no matter who they are or who owns them company wise.
    I guess my example is Superman, he was created in a time when superheroes where new all at they did is kick and punch, superman has everything he is the goody goody of the hero world, It's nothing out of who is playing him or who voices him. look at him today compared to the superhero hype, 1 movie and that was it.DC's money maker right now is Batman. the character has a few good moments here and there but he just doesnt fit in todays world, reason being they dont wanna change him up. im not including smallville in this because ive seen the show and the way ive heard its not a continuing faction of superman just a story wb has.

    then again theres the argument of loving the classic stuff, not wanting things to change is ok but characters need room to grow..if non of the muppets changed whatsoever i dont think they would still be around today
  3. Yorick

    Yorick Active Member

    I don't blame anyone for missing the old days, or mentioning what they'd change to make today's Muppets better. But I still have to say I am very happy with the job Steve is doing, and I hope he keeps up the great work! Same goes for the others, and I appreciate all their talents and thank them for keeping the Muppets alive and bringing some laughs and a smile to my face. Yes, there's a different vibe than there was years ago, but we can't be sure it wouldn't have changed even if we had the same crew. Obviously things wouldn't be exactly as they are now, but still - different. And just like anything else, some things are better than others. But from the Sam & Friends clips I've seen to specials today like Letters To Santa, I really do enjoy it all, I must say.
  4. Yorick

    Yorick Active Member

    A better written version of my previous post:

    I don't blame anyone for missing the old days, or mentioning what they'd change to make today's Muppets better. But I still have to say I am very happy with the job Steve is doing, and I hope he keeps up the great work! Same goes for the others, and I appreciate all their talents and thank them for keeping the Muppets alive and bringing some laughs and a smile to my face. Yes, there's a different vibe than there was years ago, and just like anything else, some things are better than others. But from the Sam & Friends clips I've seen to specials today like Letters To Santa, I really do enjoy it all, I must say.
  5. Hat Sharpener

    Hat Sharpener New Member

    While I was happy to see Kermit completely lose it in the 2002 Chrismtas movie, I'll admit that the character has just evolved. This started happening before Jim's passing, however.

    In The Muppets Take Manhattan, he still had the same pressure on him as the Muppet Show (more?) but he didn't lose it, he got upset, but not over-the-top upset like the Muppet Show/Grover sketches.

    And while my memories form 1989 are somewhat fuzzy by now, in The Jim Henson Hour he was definitely a more collected individual. The show where he takes a vacation comes to mind.

    I think this discussion goes a little deeper than Jim vs. Steve.

    Truth is, someday some of the younger people currently on this board will be arguing about how Kermit's not the same as he was in all those great Christmas Specials in the early 2000's, how Sesame Street hasn't been the same since Elmo stopped being the focus of the show, and how Pepe has been watered down by the executives at Disney.

    The Muppets have an odd aspect to them in that they have been going for so long, that these shifts in character seem extreme. But who else in show business can you look back 30 years and make direct comparisons? These guys are going to live forever, and will keep changing.

    Hopefully they will get good scripts and keep entertaining the world rather than becoming a corporate logo like Mickey Mouse and his crew. Does Mickey have a personality? I sure as heck couldn't describe it...
  6. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Honestly, when it comes to Mickey, the only person that really gave him a personality is the late Wayne Allwine. I've said it a LOT, but he's been the best Mickey we've had... and I'm sure they gave him some kind of personality in the comics... though, I really only read Donald and Scrooge. And, I really think the sad thing is, it wasn't until years and years and YEARS later they did interresting things with the character... House of Mouse, Three Musketeers... etc. I just thought I'd point that out, since it seems pretty ironic.

    I really think in the movies, he blamed himself for not being successful, not bad acts or anything like that. He took it out on himself, but not really in anger. Who can forget that amazing sequence in TMM where Kermit has a conversation with his innermost self? That was a very poignant moment... that and Kermit shouting off the edge of a building in MTM "I'M GONNA MAKE IT!" Angry, flustered skit Kermit doesn't really work in movies (except for VMX when he blows up at everyone).
  7. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Yeah. I got really interested in House of Mouse. However, I find it odd that Disney had to turn Mickey into Kermit in order to make him interesting, LOL.

    PS: I mean that in half-jest. Mickey's a bit more laid back than TMS Kermit, but, still ... House of Mouse, let's be honest, was TMS with Disney characters. :p
  8. JJandJanice

    JJandJanice Active Member

    Well to be fair, it's not like the Muppets were the first to come up with the idea of a variety show.
  9. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    No, they weren't, but it still reminded me of TMS.
  10. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    It's not that I;m trying to beat up on this guy's opinion... but there is one other thing that I've been thinking about... when exactly was Bert mean to Ernie outside of the first season, when he called him Meatball and other little names like that? I always thought it was the other way around... Ernie always teasing Bert.

    Another clear cut case of character evolution... Bert's first season (couple of seasons at most) character was gruff, and basically the straightman who just got angry at Ernie... But is seems that when Frank took Bert from being uptight to being dorky and strange in his own aspect did the character really take off. Among other things, I think when Bert's voice went from gruff to a more nasal tone, he was really able to emote, and that gave the character more of an angle.
  11. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    The closest examples I can think of of post-Season One Bert being "mean" to Ernie include an old-school bit from the 70s, where Ernie and Bert are at the movies, but everything Ernie does keeps making too much noise, from unwrapping a candy bar, to eating peanuts, to sipping soda, to which Bert finally blows up at Ernie to be quiet... but then, Bert got his when an usher came down to remove the noise-maker, who he saw was Bert, because he was yelling when he came in.

    That, and from the "Adding" bit from the 90s, where Bert blows his top so much that he's screaming like a girl "ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS SIT AND READ BY MYSELF IN PEACE AND QUIET, BUT NOW THERE'S MONSTERS AND COWS AND ELEPHANTS AND MARTIANS HERE! YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK, I THINK YOU SHOULD TRY SUBTRACTION! TRYSUBTRACTIONTRYSUBTRACTION! ! !"

    I think that's about as "mean" as Bert ever got after Season One or so. Well, that and an aired-once bit from the 80s (I think) where Bert finally had it with Ernie's midnight capers, and ran into the other room, where he could be heard screaming, and breaking dishes or something.
  12. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I don't say it's so much mean, as it is uptight. Ernie rarely, if any time, took it very hard (the possible exception is the book "Ernie's Big Mess" where Ernie goes so far as running away from home). Ernie just took it with a sense of humor, and sometimes even chuckled at his reactions... like a loving sibling who likes to tease the other, but doesn't mean any actual spite or malice.
  13. LamangoNumber2

    LamangoNumber2 Active Member

    Kermit wasn't real to begin with and Rosebud was the sled!
  14. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Definitely, some of my favorite Kermit moments are him getting grumpy and dryly frustrated with all the crazies around him, lol.

    I think with Letters to Santa they were trying to get back to being more kid friendly after going way too far in the tasteless direction with previous projects. But then Letters to Santa was a bit too wholesome and nice and didn't have the snarkiness of say, The Muppet Show.

    Hopefully this new movie will find a balance. :)


Share This Page

Entertainment Earth