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In Defense of the TV Films

Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by Princeton, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Princeton

    Princeton Active Member

    I’m speaking, of course, of It’s a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie, Muppets Wizard of Oz, and Letters to Santa. These TV films have gotten a lot of hate, and I think it’s time for someone to put them in perspective. They were made to try to put the Muppets back in the public eye and keep them there until it was time for another theatrical Muppet film. Naturally, these three TV films were not going to be as good as the theatrical films from the 80’s and 90’s, and frankly they don’t try to be. It was the fans that had (and continue to hold) these expectations, rather unfairly. Personally, I think that if you go into watching these three TV films without holding them up on a pedestal they don’t deserve to be on, they remain enjoyable and still function successfully on their own as Muppet films.
     
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  2. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    You forgot KSY, not to mention LTS was a special, not a film.

    I agree though, it seems as if the TV movies are somehow not considered "canon", if there is any kind of canon... even in-universe of THE MUPPETS (2011), the TV movies somehow don't seem to even exist, everybody in the movie acts like the Muppets haven't even been in the public eye at all since MFS (and the production notes make mention of this as well).

    As I've said about a million-and-fifty-six-hundred times, I honestly don't see the hate that either KSY or MWoO always get... HOWEVER, I don't see the appeal of IAVMMCM, as I've said before, that one had all the charm of a badfic written by an emo fanfic author who crawled out of a manic depressive funk, decided to write a parody of IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE with the Muppets, then sell it as a screenplay.

    Other than that, both KSY and MWoO are enjoyable: what I like about KSY was it didn't have just a tremendous amount of scope to it - it almost seemed more like a film school 101 project, and for an aspiring puppeteer growing up, watching it seemed like something that I could very well do in the future. MWoO was an interesting intepretation in that it tried to stay truer to the original OZ novels by L. Frank Baum, rather than try and remake the 1939 MGM movie, and of course, it had all the Muppet twists we come to expect.

    But again, I agree, if there's one thing that the TV movies did, it was attempt to remind people the Muppets exist, because let's face it, EM.TV was on the verge of collapsing, and Disney was hardly doing a thing with them until recently... somethings HAD to be done.
     
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  3. Princeton

    Princeton Active Member

    KSY was technically a direct-to-video release, so I didn't really forget it.

    IAVMMCM doesn't bother me as a Muppet film; it bothers me as a Christmas film. I'm very sensitive about Christmas movies/specials being overly dark or glum. The one saving grace of IAVMMCM is how Fozzie was used. After playing already established characters in MCC and MTI and not being heavily featured in MFS, this was the return to the Fozzie of the first three theatrical films.
     
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  4. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    My two cents worth, which I've already said other places:

    I adored IAVMMV--it brought a lot of heart back to my my favorite felted friends. I think it is one of Dave's most brilliant performances of Gonzo--you need to watch the rehearsal scene and the final reunion scene for his super ad-libbing and reactions to what's going on around him. Also, Kermit was likeable in this one without being a pushover or spineless. IMHO, this is the movie where we first saw Steve do what he wanted to do with Kermit instead of trying to channel Jim's Kermit. Before, I thought he was a bit too much of a pushover for Piggy (like in MTI), which is saying something because I'm a huge frog/pig shipper. Kermit in this show held his own and was quietly heroic. Also, his scenes with Fozzie are just grand--full of the friendship and exasperation that we expect from them. Fozzie's desperate desire to be the hero and his despair at being responsible--even unwittingly--was heartbreaking to watch. When Kermit finds him afterwards...pardon me, I need to get a tissue. It also features our first look at a more grown-up Scooter--personality-wise, at least. I have not idea what people don't like about this movie, except for the ones who don't like It's A Wonderful Life. And the Muppets are far from the first and will be far from the last to remake "It's A Wonderful Life," which is about as maudlin a Christmas movie as you'll ever get. (D'Snowthy--I usually like to hear what you have to say, but I don't think it's fair to blame this script on a fanfic author--retelling or parodying IAWL is standard Christmas fair, as is retelling or parodying A Christmas Carol.)

    Muppets Wizard of Oz just didn't hold together well. Brandi was whiny and not at all full of girlish goodness. It's a good thing the muppets are naturally sweet and helpful, because she had no charm to draw them in. This Dorothy didn't want to go home to her loving family--she wanted to be rich and famous. Ho hum. The match-ups to the characters were just not good. Of all the muppets who could have played a character looking for a brain, they pick Kermit? Really? And they just flat out didn't know what to do with the characters once they'd matched them up. It was a bad mix of smarmy jokes and Hanna-Barbara-esque action sequences that did little to move the action along. The best parts were when the muppets were allowed to be, well, themselves--when Janice griped about still having the same ol' run-down EM van, when the rats appeared in droves, when Johnny is sucking up to whoever's paying the bills--all good. Piggy's wardrobe--all good. Piggy's role--well.... And while I do like Jeffrey Tambor, a little of him goes a long way. I found him funny in MFS--I found him grating in MWoO.

    Speaking of MFS--This movie reminded me a lot of the original TMS, and here's why. There were funny parts and dumb parts and some that were supposed to be one and turned out to be another. As a variety show, it wasn't bad. As a movie who needed to sustain a plot? Not so great. There were funny moments, but the movie's pace was all herky-jerky, and they just didn't know how to end the durn thing. It was like they had this cool idea, "Hey! What if Gonzo thinks he's an alien?" They got the ship up in the air but then couldn't land it. And while it was lamer than lame, it wasn't even the Dawson Creek's kids fault. Plus, the aliens looked like The Electric Mayhem in drag.
    Things worth salvaging from this train wreck: The Brick House dance sequence. The Muppet Boarding House (not believable, but fun). Piggy's wardrobe. Kermit scraping paint on his vacation. Gonzo on a lawnmover--okay, that was pretty brilliant. The triad of Gonzo, Rizzo and Pepe--a superb carryover. Cheese doodle? (Need I say more?) Piggy whupping up on the agent and her smackdown with her boss. Muppet Labs in the basement? (And they SLEEP in that house?) The Rats in the lab. (I'm pretty much into the rats, now--they're all good.) The penguins in the bathroom. So...some stuff, but not most stuff, and not story stuff. If D'Snowthy thinks IAVMMC was written by a disturbed fan, they apparently saved money on this film by not having a writer. And what a shame, too, because Gonzo could have Soooo carried a film....

    KSY: And the moral of the story is...it's okay to hurt and even kill people if you're worried about peer pressure! Yay! No...wait.... Pardon me while I go retch....

    Not shy about my opinion, but interested in others' as well.
     
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  5. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member


    Well, they did need to give Kermit some sort of major role. I don't know if any of The Wizard of Oz characters fits his personality well enough. If it was a comic from Boom I could see them using Link or Beauregard or someone more appropriate.
     
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  6. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    Kermit would have been a natural at playing the tin man. MUCH could have been made of him not having a heart--just ask Miss Piggy. Plus, the irony of him bemoaning how much he misses the water.... It was like they just handed out the parts of Dorothy's friends by going down the line in order of prominence in the muppet universe. Well, let's see--Kermit's the main muppet, so we'll have him play the first character Dorothy meets.... I thought Fozzie was the best cast of the lot, and I really did like the touching little moment when Gonzo coaxes him over the log, but that emotion really should have come from Kermit because of their strong friendship.
    Just my thoughts.
     
  7. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    Hi, thought I'd pop in with some Muppet morsels.

    1 Actually, the script for MFS was doubly botched. From other threads, I know Drtooth has a better view on the behind-the-scenes story, and you can probably find it at Muppet Wiki... But there were two scripts written for MFS, the first by Jerry Jull legendary Muppet head writer; the second by newer members on the staff. They then threw both scripts into the blender and got the end result.

    2 With regards to the MWoO character casting... Bear in mind the episode By The Book from Muppet Babies. When the babies imagine the story of The Wizard of Oz the cast is as follows:
    Baby Piggy as Dorothy.
    Baby Rowlf as Toto.
    Baby Kermit as The Scarecrow, who ends up becoming a policeman in the ending.
    Baby Gonzo as the Tin Woodsman.
    Baby Fozzie as The Cowardly Lion.
    Baby Bunsen and Beaker as The Wizard in his grand costume.
    Baby Animal as a Winged Monkey.

    Additionally, during the Wizard of Oz medley in The Muppets Go to the Movies, the cast included the following:
    Piggy as Dorothy.
    Foo-Foo as Toto.
    Scooter as The Scarecrow.
    Gonzo as the Tin Woodsman.
    Fozzie as The Cowardly Lion.

    So there's some precedent for having cast Kermit as The Scarecrow, Gonzo as The Tin Thing, and Fozzie as The Cowardly Lion in MWoO.
    BTW: Ru, when you said Brandi as Dorothy, I think you're thinking of Ashanti instead.

    Also, the funniest part of MwOo to me is and always will be when Pepe starts likening their story to all the bands from the 80's.
    No, think of it okay. We left from "Kansas", we're on a "Journey"... My name is "Toto"...

    3 As for the two Christmas specials, I enjoyed them because the Muppets always do good Christmas specials. Except for that other Sesame Christmas special from 1978 that was released last year.
     
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  8. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    MWoO deserves every bit of hate it gets. It's an embarrassing film that just makes you feel despair because of it's gross dark tone. I refer to it as the Muppets own personal Batman and Robin. Heck, it even looks like Batman and Robin with the ugly use of darkness and neon and scrambled camera angles.

    Here's the many problems I had with it...

    • They tried TOO hard to make this like VMX, with a nonstop barrage of pop culture jokes. Unlike VMX, they all fall flat, and if you took those jokes out of VMX, you'd still have a decent Muppet film.
    • Like I said... the look was either blinding happy light or dismal, depressing darkness. Not to mention dizzying camera angles.
    • Statler and Waldorf's heckling is usually in good fun. What happens when you make them villains? Suddenly, the heckling becomes trolling, and far more disturbing than funny.
    • Ashanti can't act herself out of a paper bag. A Tissue Paper bag, yet. She was added in for the tween pop crowd and another reason coming soon. Bad acting isn't really a crime, but when it makes the chemistry between characters awkward and clumsy, then you have a real problem. They could have filmed Ashanti alone and edited her in the film, and the chemistry would actually be better. That's how bad it was.
    • While I enjoy the concept of Piggy being a villain, they made her frightening. And not a fun one. A totally sadistic, disturbing, adult horror film type one. Making a snuff film to boot.
    • By extension, her villain song is extremely creepy and disturbing. Listen clearly to the lyrics. "You're gonna wish that you were already dead." WOW! A Muppet sang that. Not Jarreth, not a Skessis, not even Wander McMooch... a lovable character like Miss Piggy. Suddenly, "Shiver me Timbers" is completely upbeat, and the original MGM Wicked Witch is absolutely adorable.
    • And extending on that, the music was largely forgettable. Naptime is kinda catchy. Even Piggy's torture anthem is alright. But these are not Muppet songs anyone would care to remember.
    • The entire movie is a freaking commercial for American Idol. How come the fans were up in arms about a couple Disney Channel TV Show guys have cameos in the next film and that a Cars 2 poster was on screen for 10 seconds in the last one when MWoOZ was a freaking commercial for American Idol? At least we know what Fox's hand in the movie was. They probably would have mentioned the show by name if Disney didn't buy them.
    • The Nipple joke. Completely out of place. I know it was an impov aside that was never meant to be added. The Muppeteers are playful like that. Throwing it in? And we're still whining over fart shoes, huh?
    • There were FAR better scripts floating around that should have been made. A retelling of a story that constantly lives in the shadow of the 1939 movie (YES! Even the original books) shouldn't have sounded like a good idea. Plus, the Muppets already DID WOZ in Muppet Babies. And better too.
    • And if anyone's going to make a dark, gritty version of WOZ, why does it have to be with the Muppets? And at what point does "homage" end and "willfully stealing from more popular adaptions" begin?
    • OH. I forgot. The thing was rushed out. Badly rushed out. They could have had a better Dorothy, a stronger script, better staging... but they really wanted to get it out there to launch Disney's ownership. And that movie sank that ship, lets we forget.
    On the plus side... uh... Electric Mayhem and Scooter were in it. Guess that was a good thing.
     
  9. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    Eek. Yes. How embarrassing. Was thinking of my own BrandeE from KG. Also, remembering thinking at the time that Brandi would have been a better choice than Ashanti....
    Thanks, as always for keeping me true....

    And Dr. Tooth--you are correct that the overall tone was...mean. I am pretty much against unnecessary meanness in general--it's why I cannot find anything worth watching in shows like South Park and The Simpsons and Family Guy. That sort of harsh, mean-spirited humor has no place with the muppets.

    I know some folks complained that The Muppets was too "saccharine," but I didn't see it. In The Muppet Movie, Max is just a sweetie even when he's being a bad guy. In TMTM, even the big scary agents who turn them down are not genuinely mean. I thought that Veronica in The Muppets was actually a lot less pleasant at times than Tex Richman was, because when she dismissed Kermit's star quotient, she didn't really have a good reason. So...call me a wimp, but I just can't do mean--and can't think why I should.
     
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  10. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    No prob Aunt Ru. BTW: Was it you or Layla who did a oneshot about the characters in character costume from MWoO? And where would I find it?
     
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  11. Duke Remington

    Duke Remington Well-Known Member

    True. However, some of their recent appearances, particularly a good chunk of their guest appearances and interviews, still depict the frog as a pushover to the pig, though.
     
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  12. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    I'm going to agree AND disagree, and parse the difference. When Steve first took over Kermit, there was tendency for Kermit to give way to Piggy in many of their interactions. I think you can see it in many places, but two specific examples are the way Smollet reacted to Benjamina in MTI--Jim's Kermit would not have been so sweet and melting and apologetic. He would have stood up for himself a little, or objected that the script stipulated that he deserted her a some unspecified point int he past, and told her she was milking his character's contrition and demanded to know what the heck she thought she was doing dating a pirate behind his back. He would have put Piggy on the defensive, at least. The other very clear example of Kermit being rather soft-serve is on the album Kermit Unpigged. (If you have never listened to this album all the way through, then you really should. Layla and I played it in my car when she visited and just about ran off the road we laughed so hard. It's like listening to a video in the background--you don't have to see what's happening to "see" what's happening.) Kermit hems and haws and waffles all over the place--charmingly so, but still. I have always attributed that (correct or not) to the fact that Steve was--at that time--working with Frank Oz, whom even Jim and some of the first folks thought had crazy-mad skills. So I think that Kermit gave way not just because he was giving in to Piggy, but I think that Steve was adjusting to performing Kermit (new) and to holding his own against Frank without being disrespectful. (Jim and Frank had such a strong working relationship or affection and respect that--in character--they could say just about anything to each other without fear of offending. Later, Steve became more confident, and then when Eric took over for Frank, Steve was in the lead again and Eric was the one getting used to the relationship. That point, however, unfortunately coincided with the Powers That Be's plan that--ta da!--the marriage never happened and, in fact, Kermit didn't even like Piggy. In fact, he never liked her. He had always thought her offensive and rude and fat and unwatchable...charming. It is a period that I found painful to watch. Even on TMS, when Piggy obviously overplayed her hand with Kermit (time and again), you never really believed that he didn't care for her. His jealous rages, his admiration of her figure and her shoes, his awareness that he could tweak her by making goo-goo eyes at Annie Sue.... These were all things that were funny because we knew, when push came to shove (and it usually did), Kermit would be trying to scrape back into her good graces. If you doubt that he felt fond of her, watch the Tony Randall episode--he hugs the statue she's been turned into and speaks so tenderly of her as a person that I just want to hug him. When Steve was developing Kermit's personality as more of a "playa" and a prankster, we saw none of that gentleness. It was mean, mean, mean all the way. (I think I've already explained how I feel about mean humor.) But by the time The Muppets was in the planning stages--and you can also see it in the Disney things that led up to that time--the tide was turning back. Lo and behold, Disney discovered (perhaps because of Jason's fan/professional lens) that the fans actually liked it when Kermit was a jerk to Piggy. As for Piggy being unkind to Kermit, well, I will quote Professor Higgins' mother when he complains that Eliza chucked his slippers at him. "I'd have thrown the fire irons at you!"

    Princeton, sweetie, I tried to think what I wanted to say back to what you said and I just can't think of anything to say. We differ so widely on our opinions about both Piggy and Fozzie that I don't think we have enough in common for you to see where I might try to approach their characters. I'm sorry you don't like Piggy--she is quite the pet and very much admired by many, myself included. I imagine there is not much in The Muppets for you either, since she was heroic in spite of very little possibility of personal gain, generous with Kermit even after he embarrassed her, lied to her, replaced her and refused to acknowledge his need for her until it was almost too late. I don't know that I think Fozzie is the emotional center of the muppets, but I have always found him to be a bear of great heart and sensitivity, even in his failed attempts at humor. I found the fart joke beneath him.

    Do you know, it's not in the FanFic Library Index, although it IS in the FanFic Library as a thread call Woo-hoo! Here's the link:
    http://www.muppetcentral.com/forum/threads/woo-hoo.52910/#post-955931

    I'm enjoying this discussion very much! Anybody else want to jump in?

    Ru
     
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  13. StevieOpossum

    StevieOpossum Active Member

    I was actually very fond of LTS and VMX, the only one I have major problems with is MWoO. I already talked about it in another thread, but yeah, that's the only Muppet production I fully dislike (Studio DC was alright, MWoO was intolerable).
     
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  14. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks Aunt Ru, I'll check out after this.

    I honestly have no problem with the fart shoes. Maybe if they had been called "whooppee" shoes people wouldn't be so hung about that one insignificant little detail? Then again, we're fans. Quibbling over every singular little detail is our will and wont.
    *Ducks the cannon aimed at the crowd by Wilkins.
     
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  15. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    It wasn't even so much mean as dark. I could see Piggy being mean as a villain. Anytime she's depicted as one she is kinda nasty. But an all in good fun, cartoonish nasty. Her passive aggressive portrayal of the Wicked Queen from Snow White (both in Muppet Babies and the Muppet Snow White Comic) was just amazing. Here, she seemed not to be so much jealous of Dorothy, so much as she wanted to slowly torture Dorothy to a painful, slow death. Instead of getting an over the top, wacky villainous Piggy, we see something that comes out of a very dark place (if you want to canonically think of the movie as them being actors playing these roles). Doc Hopper wanted to flat out KILL Kermit, and he's still less dark than Piggy was. I'll admit that Piggy's over the top performance as both "good" witches was done better.

    And I get they're trying to do an "homage" to The Wiz by making the Witch and her Monkeys a biker gang... but other than some pretty okay moments with Johnny, it just came off as a knockoff than a tribute. They really should have portrayed the Witch and her gang as something more innovative.

    Then you come to the flawed experiment of having Piggy be the villain. It throws something off, and I can't pinpoint it. This is the first project where the villain is a Muppet instead of a human, and it kinda shows why they've stuck to that formula before.

    But above all... Wizard of Oz is a tale overtold and completely in the shadow of that famous movie. Until Wicked came, every Oz retelling failed. Even ones that were clones of the 1939 film (that short lived 1990's DIC cartoon). They really should have picked one of the many other scripts that had more promise at the time.


    As for LTS. I really do love it, but the short run time and rush to get the project made gave the project a feel of watching the first 20 minutes of a movie then the last 20 minutes of a movie and missing out a HUGE chunk of the middle. It feels like something should have happened between Kermit and Co being at the airport and getting to the North Pole.
     
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  16. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    Oh, foo. I've a houseful of unruly teenagers and I posted without proper proofing. (Those of you who know me know how I am....) The typos I'd suffer through, but there was one spot where my meaning was totally not what I meant to say.

    Why I was trying to say was that fans actually liked it when Kermit WASN'T a jerk to Piggy. I'm not saying that everyone agrees that they are a perfect lovers. I'm just saying that we liked seeing Kermit be the Kermit that we all expected--friendly-like, to borrow a phrase. If Kermit can have compassion and fondness for Fozzie's neediness and Gonzo's craziness and Pepe's greediness and Beau's slowness, then surely there is something there that could respond to Piggy with compassion. It's obvious that he fancies her, and that--given, say, 15 or 20 years--he'd get around to asking her out. Fans responded more to Kermit's sweetness than they did to his fat jokes.

    As I've pointed out in other threads, the premise for The Muppets presupposes that the entire group fell apart when Piggy left. Not left the show--left him, left Kermit. The muppets as an acting group could have held it together if Piggy had simply left the troupe, but she didn't just leave the group. She walked right off the stage, and right out of Kermit's life. If he'd hired another pig then (or a camel or a giraffe or Annie Sue), then the show should and could have gone on. (Don't tell Piggy I said that.) But the fact that she left the show wasn't the problem. The problem was--no matter what he said to the contrary--Kermit just couldn't get along without Piggy. Once she left, he couldn't go on, and the group eventually drifted apart. That's why, at the end of The Muppets, when Kermit is morosely contemplating the half of their wedding picture with Piggy in it, and she surprises him and asks (indirectly) why he kept the picture every single one of the other muppets leans forward in suspense to see what Kermit is going to do. If he can find the right words to make Piggy stay, then they know that things won't fall apart again like they did before when she left. If he can admit that he needs her, then he'll have everything he needs, and then he'll make sure everybody else has what they need. See? Kermit takes care of everybody, but the only one who care really take care of Kermit is Piggy.

    This is actually a pretty profound observation. The muppets usually don't play villains, in part because they are incompetent at it (like Bobo), but also because the muppets at heart are really teachers, and most of the time they win not so much by conquering over their enemies, but by inviting them to share their fellowship. Thank you, Dr. Tooth!
     
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  17. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    Posted by Ruahnna: "Oh, foo."
    Foo-Foo: Yes?
    Oh, hi. Haven't seen you since that shoot for Piggy's calendar.
    Foo-Foo: I've been keeping up with, well, the less said about that "common" woman's family the better.
    Okay, er, can you wait till we're done here?
    Foo-Foo: Sure. *Flounces off.

    You know, I can see an agreement in that assessment. The one point of The Muppets where it's shown that Kermit truly does miss and need Piggy is in the Paris street stroll sequence. But Piggy doesn't let herself be sweettalked into joining just for joining back's sake. And though Kermit tells everybody she's not coming and they have to move on without her, it's clear he does. Which is why when she does join back with the rest of the troop, Kermit has to admit to himself and her he wanted her all along, resulting in Piggy being so happy she had to share her happiness with only nine out of the top ten publications in the world out of respect for Kermit wanting some privacy in their private lives.
    Foo-Foo: That's something I liked... When Kermit talked about the reporters following him on that date Miss Piggy set up, only for him to realize that he'd better make a move on his girl before he lost her for real.
    You mean in KG?
    Foo-Foo: Of course.

    Okay, just checking. Night all. *Leaves back to the dorms through the flue network.
     
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  18. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    It's not like you can't have Muppet villains. Certainly Wander McMooch is a pretty villainous character. But the villains we usually get are comic relief (Polly Lobster and Clueless Morgan), or not really villains at all, but still antagonistic (Mrs. Finch). I think there is call to have a villain in a Muppet project that is a Muppet himself (certainly seems the case for Constantine in the next film), but it just can't be one of the main cast. Unless it's an all Muppet production and they're just playing. Casting Miss Piggy as the Witch actually seems like a solid idea, but it throws certain aspects out of whack... It would have been something for Piggy to break character and feel genuine concern that Kermit was okay in a couple scenes. But they made the character far too dark and not playful enough. Having her film a reality show/snuff film wasn't playful.

    Still, when it comes to Muppet movies and longer narrative Muppet projects, I really like the sweetness of Piggy and Kermit being a couple. That was missing here because of casting choices. I'll say that's more excusable than MFS, when Piggy and Kermit were on cruise control the entire time.
     
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  19. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    I like how EVERY SINGLE FROGGIN TIME we have a thread like this, inevitably, somebody has to throw MFS bashing into the discussion when we weren't even discussing MFS in the first place.
     
  20. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    It's not so much bashing as making a point. MFS and MwOZ are the only two movies in which Piggy and Kermit's relationship are absent (I'm not counting KSY, as she wasn't in it). Oz at least has the excuse of Piggy being the villain. You look at MTI, and the plot of the book was completely altered just to put Piggy in there, and even then it explored their relationship.
     
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