Origins of the Muppetverse

Okay, this thread is for our thoughts ("our" meaning not just mine, but everyone else's) about the Muppetverse and how different beings within it originated. No one's expected to come out with a huge fanfic about it. Even just outlines would be cool.

I'll start, naturally, with mine:

The Boss, portrayed by Whoopi in VMX, isn't humanoid, but takes the shape of whatever the dominant species on the planet is when dealing with that particular planet's inhabitants. This is assuming, of course, that The Boss is akin to a deity responsible for the entire universe and not just a guardian of a particular planet or solar system. Now, in my fic-verse, Farscape, Dark Crystal, and Labyrinth are also included in the Muppetverse ... though only Labyrinth (specifically, the manga sequel) makes reference to Muppets (including a "very brief cameo" by Uncle Matt in vol 1).

I don't have Farscape DVDs and I'm not in the mood to delve too deeply into it. I'll focus strictly on Earth history here.

Very early in Earth's history, claims the series Dinosaurs, dinosaurs were "wild". I think this is a good place to start. Somewhere along the way, Earl says that dinosaurs became "civilized". My thought is that this is where the Muppetization of animals first begins. Many millions of years prior to the start of the show, animals were non-sentient or only limited in their sentience. At some point, however, something clicked, perhaps magical (or/and could relate to something the Boss did because she was bored ). Now animals could talk and reason. Dinosaurs started to settle down and do civilized things. We also see, by the start of the show, that mammals are sentient as well, as are birds and amphibians. In real Earth's history, there were several "extinctions", not just the most famous one ca. 65 million years ago. Perhaps, one of these earlier phenomena, in one fell swoop, evolved every animal on the planet, or nearly every animal. On the show, plants do not share this sentience (as far as we are shown, though Ethyl's fable about Earl becoming a tree implies that they ARE sentient, only they cannot express this to others yet).

Well, eventually, all the dinosaurs croak ... if the show's finale's implication is to be believed ... keep in mind ... we never see dead bodies. Classic comic book rule: no bodies, no death.

Now, in "Nuts to War", we are introduced to "cookie creatures" (as Baby calls them). They are very small, mammalian with pronounced eyes and a poochy gut and soft brown fur on the top of their heads and backs. I believe this creature, who comes out of a hole in the wall that was never there before (or after), is the common ancestor of at least Fraggles and Gorgs, if not Doozers as well. I think it is significant that it only appeared when there was all-out war between bipedal and quadripedal dinosaurs.

My own personal tick is that some of the dinosaurs survived. In my fic-verse, without trying to spoil too much, Robbie and others end up in the modern era. What we see as the show is based off of his family, which he recorded dutifully. "A New Leaf" is where I got the inspiration for that, as they "end" the show and reveal that the dinosaurs are acting for the sake of the show, much like the Muppets. I like to think that there are still Dinosaurs running around ... primarily because I'd like to see an updated Muppet Family Christmas, which will never happen in a million years, but I can dream, can't I?

Also, in Dinosaurs history, humans are cavemen at this time, primitive but there. (The Salad Shooter joke notwithstanding.)

Also, I put in my chronology Dark Crystal around this time, but as it takes place clearly on another world, I won't go into it much.

Anyway, fast-forward to "our" era, more or less. Well before the Middle Ages, Sir Hubris had left his job as "King of the Universe" and ended up giving his crown to King Gorgous the Great, the first Gorg King. By now, we have Gorgs and Fraggles differentiated from each other, as the disappearance of the dinosaurs permitted mammalian proliferation. The disappearance of the dinosaurs also allowed birds to diversify. There were very tall birds, and I believe this is how we ultimately get ostriches, emus, and Big Bird (as well as the other human-sized birds in Follow That Bird). He then disappeared again, though apparently the Gorgs liked him so much there is a book of legends about him. In the painting hanging in the Gorg castle, all we see of Sir Hubris is that he's cloaked in a brown robe, is shaped vaguely humanoid (though he don't see any exposed body parts, so his true species is debatable), and, in comparison to King Gorgous, most likely around 10ft tall. There are two thoughts I have: 1) in my fic-verse, I pick Jareth as the former King of the Universe, as he's arrogant (Hubris) and is portrayed as hating his position of king. I don't really go into it, but I personally figured the 10ft-tall part was an elaboration by the Gorgs; 2) for the most part, the Elders in Pangaea were clothed ... in long brown robes that obscured their faces. The downside to suggesting that it is one of the dinosaurian Elders in the painting is that although the size fits, and the turtle-faced dinosaurs would fit more of a humanoid shape under robes, there is no tail in the painting. Again, though, the legend may have conveniently skipped over some details. Also, there is the question of how a dinosaur would be around at that point. Assuming my fic-verse isn't accurate and dinosaurs actually somehow survived anyway, then I guess they could have been there during the Middle Ages. Perhaps 'dragons' are offshoots of dinosaurs who survived. However, there is also the presence of magic, which in "Mokey, Then and Now" proves capable of warping time and space ... so I'm just developing a headache for myself, hehe.

Okay, now we're more into the modern-modern era, LOL. Many different types of animals are "muppetized"/sentient, capable of speaking and reasoning and dressing up in clothes, etc. We also get talking plants at some point. Mokey reads about singing cacti in an old book, if I recall, which could imply that plants started becoming sentient several hundred years prior, at the very least. We also have "monsters" and lots of other types of creatures by now, though monsters, like dragons, may have started very early in the Common Era or in the Classical Period.

Long story short, I believe that something happened millions and millions of years ago, which created what we consider to be "muppets" now, even "creatures" ... basically the clearly anthropomorphic beings.

There's still the question of Muppet humans ... are they just "supposed" to be humans, or are they actually sub-species of Homo sapien? How many people going around actually look like Bert? It's possible to have a human with a pointy head, I guess. And there's Beaker, etc. Still, if the gag about detaching body parts is a real function of Muppet humans (well, any muppet, really, but I've seen it happen with Muppet humans more often), then certainly they are a sub-species. Whether or not they are, uh, genetically compatible with us is a different story I haven't seen evidence for or against, really.

I'd like to see other people's thoughts about this kind of stuff as well. There are various threads for various properties, but this thread could be the catch-all one.

I love this idea of a thread, and your inclusion of the Dinasaurs certainly provides much food for thought! You do seem well versed in all the different Muppet universes! I love this thread, and your theories.

I don't think in very linear terms ... if anyone'll see the forest instead of the trees, it'll probably be me

You have some good ideas RedPiggy. I think I'll explain the origin of the Muppetverse as I see it.
The Dinosaurs were alive ofer 60 million years ago. They were wild, but they they created civilised communities. As they inhabited one area of Pangea, The world of the Dark Crystal inhabited another. The Skeksis and the Mystics apeared after the crystal cracked and split from their first forms as UrSkeks. Since cave men existed during Dinosaurs, that means diffrent versions of mammles existed as well. I've always thought Gelflings were some sort of underdeveloped human species. As were the podlings.
Back to the cookie creature that you mentioned earlier, I think it eventualy evolved into the muppet monsters that inhabit TMS, SS. and other muppet worlds.
Then the metors came, and wiped out the dinosaurs, and podlings. Leaving all of the mammels and birds left. I can see Doozers being evolved from little green bugs (like afids). Fraggles evolved from underground animals (theirs another thread on here that suggests what species the Fraggles could be, I'd say their prarie dogs, or merkats myself), and the Gorgs evolved from, in my opinion, a wooly mamoth type creature,except without the trunk, and they could walk on two legs of coruse. Then regular animals evolved (including bears, frogs, prawns, rats, pigs, ect). When pangea broke apart, it took some of the monsters and other muppet creatures to other lands, hence international productions.
As for muppet huminoids, Jen and Kira managed to keep the gelfings going, and they evloved into the huminoid muppets, and whatnot and anything muppet type characters, such as Dr. Teeth, Sherlock Hemlock, Scooter, Guy Smiliey, and others.
Those are my thoughts.

I do like the Dark Crystal idea that it occurred on our planet....

... save for one tiny detail that would need explaining (so it's not a criticism) ...

There are 3 suns. We have one.

I forgot about that. Agian, it was so long ago, maybe two of the suns died out, in a non destructive manner.

When single shines the triple sun ... maybe it BECAME literally one sun at the Great Conjunction?

That works even better thanks. I haven't seen the Dark Crystal in a while, so I forgot all about the 3 suns. Thanks.

I guess I have a way different take on the "Muppetverse", heh.

From what I can see, Kermit lived in a swamp and traveled to Washington DC for his first paid acting gig in 1955. And the rest is history...as the way I see it, every Muppet in the Muppet Show, pre Muppet Show specials and commercials, Sesame Street, Fraggle Rock, Bear in the Big Blue House, Big Bag, The Hoobs, Mopatop,
Dog City, Emmet Otter, Animal Jam, International Sesame Street productions, Puppet Up! and Henson Alternative brand, and so forth are all just actors

Meaning Gonzo isn't an alien, Fraggle Rock and Gorgs were really just on a set(acknowledged in the Fraggles Look For Jobs 1986 wrapup special), etc. I say this because there has never been a unified "canon" that ties the Muppet Show to Jim Henson Hour to The Muppet Movie to any of this stuff together.

Yeah, I can see that.

Well I realize after posting that, that there has to be *some* sort
of Muppetverse story arc.

I do think Kermit really came from a swamp, even though he's an actor. I think the Fraggles came from Fraggle caves. Are they merely recreating their home lives in the Fraggle Rock show?

With the Muppets mockumentary mini series that never aired,
is this the Muppets playing themselves or once again acting?

In the show Greg the Bunny, it deals with this notion of a puppet world, but like the universe of Roger Rabbit they had to deal with prejudice from living in the human world.

But here's my point...there is so many Muppet productions...
the Jim Henson Hour, which takes place in an intergalactic
space station satellite center where they sometimes interact with Fantasy Creature Shop Characters. There is the Muppets episode of The Cosby Show that was "just a dream"(yet where Planet Koozebane is referneced, so perhaps there is a real Koozebane in the Muppetverse)

There is the Land of Gorch, Fraggle Rock, the world of Sesame Street, the Wubbulous World of Dr Seuss, Bear in the Big Blue House universe, Scary Scary Monsters, Big Bag, Stinky and Jake,
Animal Jam, Puppet Up and the world of Henson Alternative(of which I hear they are making a movie about their universe), and so forth.

Basically, from Sam and Friends 1955 to Pajanimals in 2009, it's a VERY big Muppetverse to say the least.

*perks up* Wait, Henson Alternative is getting a movie about their universe? *sighs as Bobby and Samson might just get another shot at fame ...*

My thoughts about the Muppetverse are kinda Greg the Bunny-like, I suppose, although I've never seen it myself. Where, the Muppets as a race have always had prejudice against them, and where until Sam and Friends and then Sesame Street took off, they were almost utterly unseen by the human eye. Kinda how Travelling Matt is usually not seen by humans.

I don't quite know at what stage "talking animals" like the dog from KSY became gradually more Muppet-like, but I do think that it was Kermit getting on a bike and heading out of the swamp that forced people to finally acknowledge the existence of these Talking Muppet creatures.

Similar to the scene at the end of KSY where people realise the Frogs can talk for the first time...And where that "Roy" like frog spoke to the Doc in his biology class, before he got called a Froggy-pants...Maybe encounters of that kind have always happened and no one realised.

Yes, the Muppets are actors, acting. But the shows and movies do also parallel their lives to an extent.

Yep! You can read all about it here:
http://www.muppetnewsflash.com/2009/02/could-hensons-happytime-murders-lead-to.html

It looks like it will include puppets from the HA Universe(Puppet Up, etc) and take place in that world. I definitely consider these guys all Muppets given so many of the puppets are from Jim Henson Muppet productions.

Incidentally, for awhile JHC was known by the logo "HA!" for henson associates.

Whoah, that's a good thought. I think given the Muppets acknowledge Jim Henson, his role in the Muppetverse is that he was the first human to give them a chance and their first break.
I tend to think stories like The Movie Movie are a loose composit of how they all met. Kermit being in a swamp, then discovered. Fozzie was down on his luck working cabaret and underground lounge acts.

Couldnt have said it better.

I do find it interesting how Gonzo has said he's not really an alien, and Kermit and Piggy in interviews have said they aren't married in real life. Gonzo once in 2002 I believe, did a rarely seen live webcast chat and spilled some interesting stuff. Getting to see the Muppets performed in person is a trip, within the Muppetverse it's clear these characters have been at this a very long time.