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Should Walter be a main character in place of Rowlf and Scooter?

Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by BlakeConor14, Mar 4, 2015.

?

should Walter be a major muppet

Poll closed Mar 11, 2015.
  1. yes

    1 vote(s)
    4.2%
  2. no

    23 vote(s)
    95.8%

  1. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    You know the Muppet Mindset have a series section called Muppetology 101. I've been thinking about starting a thread like that on here for sometime, but I honestly don't know how well it would be recived.
     
    BlakeConor14 likes this.
  2. Ladywarrior

    Ladywarrior Well-Known Member

    hey hey now. muppet christmas carol and muppet treasure island are rather entertaining. I enjoyed them as a child and my dad watches the christmas carol one every year. It's one of his favorites along with year without a santa clause. XD
    anyway back on topic. Rowlf as toto would have been inetresting. Really it would have. I mean they would have rewrote the way toto acted due to pepe being a bit of a creep and rowlf... well not.
    and I STILL think Nigel and Walter should do a whistling number even if it's just a minor web video on their youtube page.
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  3. BlakeConor14

    BlakeConor14 Well-Known Member

    Walter and nigel the conductor no chance but a muppet mindset type of thing I like it
     
  4. scooterfan360

    scooterfan360 Well-Known Member

    since i missed the poll , here is what my vote would have been . No , because i think that walter should just stay in the background like he has been doing, and let scooter and rowlf remain main muppets. scooter and rowlf can not be replaced, i would just cry if that happened.
     
    FletchySRF3088 likes this.
  5. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    I'm going to disagree with you on the Rowlf as Toto thing. Because no matter how they re wrote it he just would not have made a good Toto. Don't get me wrong I love Rowlf, but he would not have made a good Toto.
     
    Duke Remington and Gonzo14 like this.
  6. BlakeConor14

    BlakeConor14 Well-Known Member

    Why give reasons why he is the wrong toto
     
  7. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    His personality is to laid back for one thing.
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  8. Ladywarrior

    Ladywarrior Well-Known Member

    bummer. his dog roles in films are funny or at least when he channels a real dog. I love the seen in TGMP when he barks at the german shepards outside the mallory gallery to stop them barkings.
     
    BlakeConor14 and dwayne1115 like this.
  9. BlakeConor14

    BlakeConor14 Well-Known Member

    He is not that laid back he's funny and witty
     
  10. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Frankly, if I were that jaded, I'd say the 90's, early 00's era was more the Rizzo and Gonzo show. And to be fair, Kermit was slowly being reintegrated back into the Muppets because Jim died and Steve wasn't extremely comfortable with the character, and while I'd say he did a great job in MCC and MTi, it wasn't really until VMX when Kermit became really Kermit again. Not to mention Frank Oz's shrinking involvement. So basically we got Gonzo, Rizzo, and a bunch of new characters, but only Pepe manages to be used today. And considering the last 2 movies, just barely.
     
  11. BlakeConor14

    BlakeConor14 Well-Known Member

    don't forget bobo and carl have stayed
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  12. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Intermittently, yeah. But not to the same extent as Pepe. Though Carl was promoted.

    Like I said, I fail to see the complaint about how the newer characters are eclipsing the old ones now. MT and MTI created a lot of new characters to fill in gaps left by Jim and Richard's passing and Franks shrinking involvement. We didn't have Scooter or the Mayhem band outside of silent or one line cameos. Most of those characters have since disappeared, be it through the characters being terrible (Spamella, Mr. Poodlepants, Andy and Randy) or the departure of other performers like Brian Henson. So essentially with the viral videos, TM and MMW, we've seen a rise of Rowlf and Scooter. Heck, Scooter gave a passionate TED speech that time. Not Kermit, Not Gonzo, Scooter. The classic characters have essentially replaced newer ones. I don't see the complaint. Sure, they're not quite as active as they were back in The Muppet Show's time when you had weeks of 20 minute episodes to give each of them a special segment or skit. Maybe they're a tiny bit less involved than in the original movies, where they were tertiary characters at best. But a far cry from MFS's one Scooter line and Rowlf's grunts in MFS and VMX.
     
  13. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    I mentioned this elsewhere recently, but I feel like Sam the Eagle got a slight boost in prominence during the 1990s. Sure, he was missing from the albums and Muppet Classic Theater, but in The Muppet Christmas Carol he got his biggest role (at the time) in a Muppet movie (in all previous movies he only got one line per scene), and then in Muppet Treasure Island was given a main role. He also had a recurring sketch on Muppets Tonight. The show started a few months before I got the internet, and at the time I didn't know that Frank Oz's directing schedule limited his time with the Muppets (and I still wouldn't really know that for three years), but even then I was surprised to see Sam on the show, having seen him as a minor character plus the fact that so many established characters just walked out of the office at the beginning of the first episode, making me wonder if that meant known characters would be limited* and the fact that Fozzie wasn't even in the first episode (the fact that Oz performed Fozzie and Sam is a coincidence to that part,though).

    *The first episode opens with a meeting between Kermit and several known Muppet characters, they all (but Clifford) run out when Kermit asks somebody to host the new show, and it doesn't help that we don't see many of them again for the rest of the episode (we do see Bunsen and Beaker again, but that's presented as a clip from the past - and then we didn't see them on the show again until six episodes later). While the show would pretty much prioritize new characters over old, the first episode seems to be one with the most use of old characters. Clifford, Andy and Randy, and the Elvises could all be seen as new characters but technically had appeared before, so there's very few characters who truly are original (just Nigel, David Hogsohog, Spamela, and in the first scene Mr. Poodlepants).


    Part of me wonders if there should also be an era for the years between The Muppet Show and Jim Henson's death. It can still be considered Prime Years (maybe Prime Years Part II), but during that time the Muppets usually weren't on TV on a regular basis and the various performers were split among productions (Jim was busy with everything, Frank was directing Jerry, Dave, and Steve were busy with Fraggle Rock, Richard spent a lot of his time on Sesame Street and other New York-produced productions). They did movies and specials, and a lot of direct-to-video projects, but during this time Jim Henson started to allow them to be used in more productions for younger kids, with Muppet Babies getting the most exposure for the Muppets, in addition to various home videos and computer games being educational (the short-lived Little Muppet Monsters, on the other hand, doesn't seem educational). The Muppets did return to prime time with The Jim Henson Hour, but according to Jim Henson: The Biography, it was the Muppet segments (as well as Jim Henson's intros) that the critics were most harsh to (the book mentioned that critics loved The StoryTeller, but I wonder if more episodes were reviewed; I'd like to know critics opinions on episodes without The StoryTeller, particularly their opinion on Lighthouse Island, as well as critic opinions on the few full-hour episodes).
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  14. Gonzo14

    Gonzo14 Well-Known Member

    Yeah I would agree with that. When I listed those, I was just making my point and wasn't going into full details. If I were to take time and really examine it, then I agree. Here's my detailed take on the many Eras of The Muppets. Comments and Feedback are welcome :)

    1955-1970: Early Years: The very beginning of The Muppets, biggest identifiers being Sam and Friends and the Jimmy Dean Show

    1971-1974: Pre-Muppet Show: With productions like The Frog Prince, Hey Cinderella, and The Muppet Valentine Show we start to see some emerging characters who would play a big part in the franchise (Robin, Sweetums, Crazy Harry)

    1975-1981: The Muppet Show: I start this era with TMS: Sex and Violence. The Muppet Show era is when The Muppets were launched into a level of stardom they hadn't reached before. Along with The Muppet Movie, This era would include The Muppet Movie, The Great Muppet Caper, as well as TV Specials such as The Muppets Go Hollywood

    1981-1990: Post-Muppet Show: As stated earlier, In this era, The Muppets are still very active and in the spotlight, but on a much more sporadic basis. This is the era where a lot of side projects/franchises such as Dark Crystal/Fraggle Rock were taking off. Productions in this era include The Muppets Take Manhattan, Muppets at Walt Disney World, and I would say the last production in this era is The Muppets Celebrate Jim Henson.

    1990-2000: Post Henson/Hunt: This is the most easily defined era with changes that are unavoidable (The untimely deaths of Jim Henson and Richard Hunt) leading to a drastic change in which characters are portrayed. Rowlf, Scooter, and the Electric Mayhem took a back-seat, making way for characters such as Clifford, Johnny Fiamma, Sal, Pepe, and Bobo to Shine. The Biggest examples of this era are Muppets Tonight, The Muppet Christmas Carol, Muppet Treasure Island, and Muppets From Space.

    2001-2008: The Muppet Show Throwback: Starting with Muppet Fest/The Muppet Show Live, we started to see the Muppets slowly phase back in characters that were put on the sidelines in the last era. The Muppets seemed to be giving the message that they haven't forgotten about TMS, with The Muppet Show Live as well as VMX being set in the old Theatre. Rowlf, Scooter, Janice, and Dr. Teeth started talking more regularly, and we also started to get a decrease in some of the 90s characters (most notably Clifford, but that's most likely due to Kevin Clash being busy with Elmo). Another notable event is Eric Jacobson taking over Frank's characters, allowing more frequent usage of Piggy, Fozzie, Animal, and Sam.

    2009-?: Re-Emerging Era: I would mark the new era with the YouTube videos, especially Bohemian Rhapsody. The Muppets were back, and old characters started coming out of the woodworks. I couldn't believe it when I saw Dr. Strangepork back on my screen. This continued even more so with The Muppets and Muppets Most Wanted. We were bombared with blasts from the past such as Uncle Deadly, Thog, Nigel, Lips, etc. I'm not saying that these movies are perfect, as you can see from our many discussions on them, but I'm excited to see what comes next. I personally feel like these movies were a step in the right direction.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015
  15. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    While there are those who poopoo the idea of recasting characters even now, the fact that many characters were yet to be recast lead to the necessity of creating new characters to fill in those spots. The important thing is that characters were invented to fill those gaps while MCC relied on human cast members. Scooter would have/should have been a natural to play nephew Fred, but without anyone playing Scooter, they couldn't use him, especially in that capacity. Then came MTI, where they filled the pirate roles with new characters like Clueless Morgan and Polly Lobster, leading to significantly less humans in important roles. Just Tim Curry and the kid that played Hawkins. As for a show, that's kinda why it took so long to get one off the ground. New characters were brought in to fill up the series. That was decidedly more hit or miss. The one note parody characters just didn't work, and while MT is far more pop culture-y than any other Muppet project before it, one shot skits worked far better than recurring parodies. Especially ones named after Muppet Show skits that were far better (cough cough Deep Dish Nine).

    Nowadays, it seems that over all there's more access to understudies to make sure classic characters don't disappear completely with the performer. Sesame Street is a great example of that. What was it? Like a few months before The Count started talking again? And even then it was for a viral video between seasons. They have a better handle overall on replacements. Even Prairie's already has a recast when Fran retired.
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  16. Ladywarrior

    Ladywarrior Well-Known Member

    i am just hoping if they make a new christmas movie/special it's heart warming and sweet. I really liked muppet family christmas.
     
  17. BlakeConor14

    BlakeConor14 Well-Known Member

    I think Johnny and sal and Howard tubman should have stayed
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  18. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Unless Brian wants to work some freelancing for Disney, I think Sal should be recast. Somehow, I think that Tyler Bunch would work.
    I really wish the Muppets could branch out into other holidays. I think they have quite enough Christmas projects as it is. I really would like to see them try that Halloween special they keep putting on hold.
     
    Duke Remington likes this.
  19. Ladywarrior

    Ladywarrior Well-Known Member

    well their muppet show halloween specials were amusing to watch. Maybe they could do an easter or valentines film.
     
  20. Gonzo14

    Gonzo14 Well-Known Member

    I think after the new trailer we can breathe a sigh of relief. It looks like Walter will be in the new show, but it doesn't look like he'll be overpowering Rowlf or Scooter (or anyone else for that matter)

    Hooray!!
     

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