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The Foam Book Videos 4 SALE

Discussion in 'Puppets For Sale' started by Puppetplanet, Jun 23, 2003.

  1. Puppetplanet

    Puppetplanet Well-Known Member

    Hello all,

    I have The Foam Book Video Set for sale. This 2 vhs tape set is only 4 or 5 days old. It is in "like new" MINT condition. I have made a copy for my private collection and would really like to sell the original set (since I could use the cash). This is a fantastic set with tons of tips and puppet building ideas.

    I have only been building puppets for a year and was able to grasp the ideas used in the instructions given. Not to mention, I just understand things better if I can *see* it in action as they are explaining. ;) The foam base that they use is easy to get and work with, and has brought new life to my new puppet characters!

    The set is $40 brand new. I am willing to accept any fair offer in US dollars. I can ship anywhere via any method you like (buyer pays shipping costs). I accept paypal, money orders, or personal checks. Please understand that I will not ship this item until checks clear.

    You can e-mail me at puppetplanet@aol.com

  2. Buck-Beaver

    Buck-Beaver Well-Known Member

    :boo: :boo: :boo:

    :sympathy: (sighs) Here we go with the piracy debate again.....I was going to complain about this post to Grey Seal, but then I thought better of it and decided to settle for a mild scolding instead.

    OK, this is really wrong for a couple of reasons, namely:

    1) The Foam Book videos are produced by Grey Seal Puppets independently. By doing this you're not just denying another $40 sale to some big faceless corporation, but doing it to a small, independent arts company that derives a reasonable portion of it's income from the sale of videos and books which are created to help the puppetry community - beginners especially. I don't know Drew Allison or anyone else at Grey Seal personally (only by reputation) but by all accounts they are nice folks who gladly share much of their puppet building knowledge through workshops, books and videos (alot of puppet builders zealous guard every little puppet building secret they know). As professional artists I think it's reasonable that they be financially compensated for their work by those who use it.

    Grey Seal deserves better than be denyed a sale because you are selling off a used tape (albeit one only a couple of days old) for the same price they sell new sets while you keep a pirated "free" copy in their personal collection. Bought it and don't like it? That's cool, sell it. Just don't don't make a copy for yourself first. You shouldn't have it both ways.

    2) Piracy is wrong. I know lots of people here are involved in tape trading and - even though that's illegal no matter what - I can see the legitimacy of it if it's material that is not available to the public (say episodes of Sam and Friends, The Jim Henson Hour or something like that). But if you truly are a fan of something (Muppets, puppetry, etc.) and you have choice of buying a legit copy and supporting the artist or grabbing a quick pirated tape you should buy the legit copy and support the artist every time.

    3) If enough people do this, Grey Seal will not have a financial incentive to create more books and videos which will deny the puppetry community a potential resource. It could even cause them to withdraw the books and tapes if it's eventually not worth their while to sell them.

    Now I know that some people might not be able to afford the Foam Book, videos etc. and that's reasonable too. But that's why our governments fund libraries. If the library doesn't carry those titles, ask if they will. Most libraries base their selections on requests from users. It worked in my town.

    I would suggest that anyone who supports the work of Grey Seal and/or their Foam Book/Videos not support piracy by buying these used copies and purchase videos directly from Grey Seal at http://www.greysealpuppets.com/foambookvideo.html. I think it's the right thing to do.
  3. Puppetplanet

    Puppetplanet Well-Known Member


    People sell used items all the time. Why are yard sales so popular? The fact that I made a copy for myself is not against the law...... at least I'm not pirating mulitple copies to make a profit off their information (which IS against the law).

    I was simply offering the helpful information to someone at a cheaper price. I apologize if I offended anyone with my post.

  4. Erine81981

    Erine81981 Well-Known Member

    i wouldn't mind owning that book set. It just I would have to wait a long time. not very long just until I get back from my vaction. Hope you still have it.
  5. Buck-Beaver

    Buck-Beaver Well-Known Member

    Don't misunderstand, my issue wasn't that you were selling the tapes. That's perfectly legal and certainly your right. It's not even a problem that you made one copy for your personal use (that's legal under US law, but not in most other countries). My problem is that you made an copy for yourself and now want to turn around and sell the original tape to someone else. That's when it becomes piracy.

    Most people don't realize, but we don't "buy" books, CD, DVDs, etc. What we're doing is licensing the right to see/hear/read a creative work by someone else (a tape or disc is just the medium the work is delivered in). You can transfer that right to someone else buy selling the CD/DVD/Book/etc. but once you do that you loose the right to have the personal copy. Want to still have a copy of a video after you sell it to someone else? Then you have to buy another.

    If someone buys the tape from you they're not doing anything wrong, but they're effectively supporting your piracy. There will be two copies of the videos out there but the creators were only paid for one of them. You've gotten yourself a "free" copy and that's stealing.

    Most people don't see the harm in making a copy of a video or downloading a song illegally. And truthfully, one person doing it for their personal use is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. The problem is that if the next person (or someone else) does the same thing instead of Grey Seal being out $40 they're now out $80. If this happens ten times they've lost $400. A hundred times and they've lost $4000. And so on.

    We're all fans of puppetry and the Muppets here. I'm a firm believer that there's a right way and a wrong way to enjoy them and show our appreciation for them. Piracy is the wrong way. Just like shoplifting raises prices in stores, not paying for videos, books and music discourages their creators from producing more work.

    The Foam Book Videos were born because the Foam Book was a huge success. If the videos are an equal success, chances are that will encourage Grey Seal to produce something new. By supporting artists like this we help to ensure they can earn a living at what they do and will continue to produce more work. That way, they win and their audience (us) wins.

    It's good for everybody! :)
  6. Puppetplanet

    Puppetplanet Well-Known Member

    I completely understand your point. I simply have no desire to create hard feelings between me and anyone else on the board. Especially since I JUST signed up.

    However, I will not debate this issue. I will agree that some people may not agree with me..... thats okay. If I am wrong for my oppinion, then maybe one day I will see my error. To me, it seems that there are a lot of "what ifs" in your theory in regards to everyone doing what I did. (making their own copy to keep and reselling the original).

    Lets look at it from a different point of view...... I have already watched the entire set SEVERAL times. Would it be any different if I took notes or made sketches on the points I liked? NO, it would not. So, your going to bash me for being too lazy to take the notes and to smart for making my own personal video copy instead? Okay, I accept that as you are entitled to your oppinion..... but I still do not agree,although..... again, I do understand what your saying.

    Walk in peace,
  7. CaptCrouton

    CaptCrouton Well-Known Member

    I'm not here to make enemies either, but I think there is a big difference between taking notes and sketches from watching the video vs copying the video. The notes are yours because you produced them. You didn't produce the video. It's not yours, once you sell it. And you are absolutely stealing the profits of another person or two.

    I didn't think Buck was bashing. He was just pointing out the legal and ethical error of your ways and the ramifications of what you're doing to the "little guys." They're really nice, helpful people at Grey Seal. I wish you'd look at it from their point of view.

  8. Puppetplanet

    Puppetplanet Well-Known Member

    Well, no matter what I say there are just going to be people who insist that I have to agree with what they are telling me. I have had multiple e-mails from members who have read the entries in this post and think that you guys are blowing this thing WAAAY out of porportion.

    At this point, it doesn't really matter to me what your oppinion is. If you want to go and buy everything BRAND NEW and not used, then do so.

    The only reason why you don't know that a used VHS wasn't copied in any other situation is because you weren't told it was. I guess I made the mistake of being so honest in my original post...... seeing as how everyone is so **** bent on trying to make me see things their way. Geez. :rolleyes:
  9. puppetguy

    puppetguy Well-Known Member

    I'll be seeing Drew Allison at the Puppeteers of America Festival next week. I'll ask him what his take on it is. I've know him for years and he is, as Buck assumes, a nice guy. Buck is absolutely correct in that Grey Seal is basically a "mom and pop" organization. Granted, they're not going to go bankrupt because they won't get the sale of videos from whomever you sell to. But you're doing them no favors either.
    My advice, should you decide to do this again, which I'm not suggesting, don't be dumb enough to post what you did...just sell it on ebay.
    Ah...MC suddenly turns into an ethics debate forum...

  10. Puppetplanet

    Puppetplanet Well-Known Member

    Maybe I should have title this thread "The Soap Box"

    or no.... maybe "Bash The White Hair Lady"

    OOOOooo, wait.... how about if you guys all just wack me with a rubber chicken and get it over with!

    :rolleyes: Give me a break already....... beleive me, I wont be THAT honest again!!! :rolleyes:
  11. Buck-Beaver

    Buck-Beaver Well-Known Member

    Again, I wasn't bashing but making a point about the negative impact piracy has on artists, mostly smaller independent ones. This is a BIG issue these days and a big problem. And it hurts the little guys the most. If Madonna looses thousands of dollars because of piracy it's not really a big deal. But her label is less likely to sign smaller, riskier independent artists if they're losing lots of money because of piracy (and that's what has happened in the record industry).

    Alot of people are losing money because of this kind of thing in general and the powers-that-be are really starting to crack down and enforce their rights. I saw today on CNN that the recording industry association in the U.S. has begun taking university students who illegally downloading music from the Internet to court (they were tracked down by their ISPs). Most of them have settled for around $17,000. Piracy just got very, very expensive for them. And that was just the beginning.

    Much more expensive than just buying the CDs.
  12. Puppetplanet

    Puppetplanet Well-Known Member

    You can go on and on until you are blue in the face. So and so can go ask whomever what his friend thinks..... But the fact of the matter stands that making a copy for my personal use IS NOT against the law.

    Why do you think all that copying and trading going on in the other areas of MC aren't getting busted? They sure as heck don't pay for those copies that their getting! This is no different, you just choose to rant and rave and run your personal debates in a thread when you sure as well could be starting your own thread on the issue. I've already stated that I do not agree, will not be changing my mind, and KNOW that I am NOT comitting a crime.

    You know, I was nice despite the fact that someone up there called me "Dumb" for being so honest. But now that I have been totally angered by the pushy and narrowminded oppinions listed on this thread I think I better be done with what I have to say because I don't want to continue with a bad experience in a place where I am supposed to have fun.

    So, if your whole thing is to get the last word..... then get it over with tonight because I've had it with this thread and dealing with pushy "gotta always be right" people.

    YOUR MORAL OPPINION IS NOT LAW...... thank god!
  13. Erine81981

    Erine81981 Well-Known Member

    *smacks Buck-Beaver's face* Leave puppetplanet alone. Sorry but if anyone has a proumble you can deal w/ me. Ok.


    *passes out*
  14. CB Boy

    CB Boy Member

    *Pulls out rubber chicken*

    *Pauses for a moment*

    *Thinks better of inflicting senseless cartoon violence on misguided but well-meaning fellow MCers*

    I got a good chuckle out of reading this thread (because everyone freaking out failed to read/understand what Buck was talking about).

    My hats off to Buck for - as per usual here - makin' a bulletproof case for why piracy is wrong and completing his transformation in to the Metallica of Muppet Central. Now Buck, if you channel that energy in to something like finding a cure for cancer, lobbying for the Kyoto Accord or campaigning against landmines we'll really be rockin' ;)

    Some random thoughts:

    Ernie - *Whacks with rubber chicken anyway* Mess with the Beaver and u mess with the Moose (and you don't wanna mess with the moose) :zany:

    PuppetPlanet - Buck's point wasn't that you can't make a personal copy (he's right that that is illegal everywhere except the US). He actually said that you can do that. What he said was illegal was making a personal copy AND selling the original. That's his whole point! And it is actually a legal fact, not an opinion.

    Seriously folks (and by folks I refer to the people accusing Buck of bashing, being pushy, picking on puppetplanet, etc.) get real. THat Beaver's making good points. If you want to violate copyright laws fine, whatever. But it is stealing, illegal, and yes, it's wrong. You just can't make a case for justifying piracy. That's not a moral judgement kids - it's a legal fact.

    Now if you'll excuse me I have to go search Kazaa for some P. Diddy tunes before the record companies have the FBI raid my apartment and tell the INS to deport me.... :D
  15. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

    Right on, PuppetPlanet!! :D :cool:

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