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Discussion in 'Muppet Headlines' started by Drtooth, Nov 4, 2015.
Here's a link that says the reboot will occur after episode 10, not 16.
Here's my whole issue: They're putting puppets in the role of humans. Puppets don't age, unless they really went all-in and created older-looking puppets, but then again, who wants to see puppets age? Imagine the current show in 2 seasons. What could they possibly be up to? How could they keep it fresh? I feel like it would get old after a season or two.
What it says at the end of that article really got me.
"Meep meep meep meep meep meep meep. Meep meep meep meep meep meep meep meep meep. Meep meep meep meep—meep meep meep. Meep meep? Meep!"
Is this some kind of a joke???
Joke for the casuals.
We just have to hope for the best
I really am fine with the show as it is, but it seems like someone who had worked on Galavant would be a better fit with the muppets, hopefully those nitpickers are satisfied with the retooling, and it becomes the hit it should have been in the first place.
Is my major concern. I'm incredibly furious at Archie comics for all the sudden pulling the plug on the Mega Man comic before they even got to the Mega Man 4 plotline they were building up to. Then they planned a reboot comic series and there were two things that bugged the crap out of me on that. The first being oh yeah...sure...a "Hiatus." In comic book terms that's usually a "we've completely moved on and so should you." and more importantly, I've been invested in this series for the 5 years it was being published only to have everything end with the ubiquitous "The Adventure Continues." If I wanted to leave the story up to my imagination, why bother spending 4 bucks a month to see someone else's interpretation. Archie comics is essentially dead to me. Not even going to bother with the last 2 comics in the series.
And frankly, why should I bother being invested in this series when I just want to see the Kermit/Piggy/Denise angle play out? Not even if this "retool" leads to cancellation and replacement with horrible sitcoms and or singing competitions. Keep the plot, flesh it out, and give it the satisfying ending it deserves.
Disney invested hard into this idea, and the ratings slump was a kick in the crotch to this. Then again, it's opposite two shows I can say passive aggressive things about and one show that actually splits the demographic. Even if the ratings are lower, there's still an audience out there for this. I don't think changing the series will get the viewers back they lost, and I'm worried that the small cult audience that actually tolerates the format of the show will leave once everything is said and done. Then there's the worse outcome.
Remember how I just said "I'm not going to be invested if they pull the plug?" Why should any of the audience bother when Disney basically says "we done screwed up, but we'll fix it?" It's an admission of guilt. Is anyone not going to point to this show and laugh at it failing after this? That's a sure fire way to kill the series (and the Muppets outside of kiddie nostalgia and Family Guy cutscenes) to say, "you know that stuff half the viewers didn't like but you did? Well..." If there's anything in the whole wide world the show doesn't need it's the same snarky and cynical viewers who complained how the show was too snarky and cynical getting snarky and cynical about the show's trouble finding an audience. The fact that the reboot comes in the first season instead of waiting to pick the show back up and change it for season 2 is troublesome and worrisome. I'd almost be less unnerved if they just canned the show.
I honestly think that can be accomplished gradually without having to change the entire show. If there's any thing that should have been a better guide for what a sorta realistic-ish series featuring the Muppets, it's The Muppets Take Manhattan. It proves that the Muppets can work in a more gritty, realistic setting without having to be completely cartoonish and being aware they're in a movie. They need to review that version of the characters and pick out what worked. They had just enough Muppetyness without turning into a cartoon. But I guess the audience wants the cartoonyness, even though it didn't exactly work for the last movie.
Then there's part of me that says, even if this was a competent clone of the old Muppet Show, the audience would still be bored and switch to "Formulaic Terrorist Fightint Force with the Compu-tors" no matter what. Cartoony and absurd didn't make MT a success. No wonder they went for a different format.
Still, nothing here sounds even remotely like good news unless it does indeed improve the show and gets the ratings back up there. And I'm skeptical about that. yet, I'm also completely baffled by the fact anyone tuned into the awful new Odd Couple and the fact that Last Man Standing keeps getting renewed. Those shows are far far worse in quality than this show will ever be.
To be fair, when fans here wanted to jump ship on this show and the changes it made to the characters, they were continually begged to give it another chance. Now with this next reboot, you don't want to do the same?
I wasn't the one begging. I was the one that said the opposite, that if they can't find enjoyment in it that there's plenty of classic material they do like to revisit. Unless any of the fans had Neislen boxes, there wouldn't have been a significant change. It's not like a movie where every dollar counts.
Now, if there's one thing I feel the need to stress, it's that there's a difference between loyal Muppet fans who have seen everything they can ever and have perspective, casual fans that see a good enough amount to sort of judge things, and mainstream audiences who watched a couple movies or episodes of the TV show when they were kids (of which we know this cycle.... they loved them as kids, became too cool for the room 11 year olds and hated them through their teen years until they hit their 20's and everyone suddenly talks about them again and it's all the sudden cool to like them again) that expect the same stuff they swore was either in the movies or TV Show. Those latter are usually the ones that spammed the board with "what are the 2 guys in the balcony called" or "I remember miss piggy on sesame street" questions (they never stick around to answer).
Now that that's out of the way...
I, personally, will give the reboot a chance as a Muppet fan, but the nagging problem of dangling plot points that don't get the satisfying payoff they should...well, that leaves a sour taste. And I'm sure the more casual to mainstream fans that tolerated the changes to the show because they were building up to something will feel cheated that the stuff they were able to look aside in context essentially means jack diddly squat now. That's what kills shows, you see. When you get very invested in the storylines and then told "HEY! The series is cancelled" I don't think that many will stick through the remainder of the episodes. Certainly that's my issue with the Mega Man comics and why I vow NEVER to buy another Archie product ever again. And I'm huge enough a Mega Man fan (or was) to should have at least wanted to stick it through, but I was so ticked off that nothing in the story line mattered I gave up 3 issues before the end. Not even going to get them in the future if they're in the 50 cent bin.
Now I'm sure no one watching is going to be that annoyed, then again, we're talking about a show that's been on about 7 weeks vs wasting 5 years of story investment and a miserable summer of trying to get connecting covers for a crossover event that didn't even save the *&^%$ comic series... (did I say I was angry at that enough yet?) Maybe the audience will be willing to throw away 10 episodes for a new format. I'm giving it a shot, but the desperation this smacks of doesn't bode well.
There are times when mainstream fans can be amusing that way, lol. But on the other hand, they do have a way of keeping the most iconic images alive (two guys in the balcony being a good example). And the Muppets were mainstream in the 70s and 80s, they weren't just some small niche genre thing only "geeks" could like.
Like you say, it's only been a couple of weeks. There's no "Who shot JR?" moment yet really.
I'm wondering if reboot is too strong a word. Would Parks and Recreation shifting from a snarkier tone in Season 1 to the lighter tone in later years be considered a reboot? Would Seinfeld moving to denser plotlines from Seasons 1 and 2 to Season 3 and 4 be considered a reboot? Those shows changed in tone in a large manner, but it was done gradually. So if things shift slightly in tone, it wouldn't be as much a reboot as an evolution. Again, we won't know this until the spring. I'm trying to be hopeful about this.
The ratings for the muppets are not neccesarily bad at all, if it were just some new sitcom on Tuesdays it would be more or less a decent hit. The Muppets has a higher standard, its a brand that is well known, and lots of money was invested, so while ratings for the muppets may be a hit if something like Fresh off the Boat are getting the same ratings, its a little underwhelming for the muppets. Though, its ratings are not cancellation worthy, I just hope they improve, and that the new episodes will get people back on the show.
Parks and Red is an incredibly apt example. The first season struggled to find itself a voice that wasn't (and this is the best way to put it) The V.R. Troopers to The office's MMPR. While I did like how the first season essentially crapped all over small town government myopia and how the residents would rather have a literal gaping hole left in their community because the condo bubble burst (which is a sharp sting of reality for most viewers), I felt the rest of it...flat. The characters seemed almost like expies of the Office cast, Chris Pratt's character was obnoxious and unlikable (to think there was a time when he wasn't the awesomest guy ever), and the show really didn't know where it was either. Then the second seasomn came and things started to shift dramatically. The characters were more refined and distanced from Office, and the plot lines and tone shifted from realism to something just cartoonish enough to be believable yet entertaining and exaggerated. Like the complete exact between of The Office and 30 Rock.
However, I wouldn't call what Parks and Rec or even Seinfeld so much "reboots" as the natural flowing of a TV show that struggled to find its voice in the first year. Seinfeld probably took a couple seasons to find itself as the glorious comedic sociopath comedy we all know today. But the thing with The Muppets is that they stated "reboot," so that could mean anything.
Things move way too fast now. A show has to be exactly what it is in the first season, and it doesn't get that growing period when they ditch what doesn't work and find a better angle. That leads to the "Heroes/Glee" factor where the show is great out the gate (with Glee, relatively...I never liked it) but can't maintain itself beyond the first season and a half and becomes a joke that loses supporters left and right. The Muppets needs time to grow. They need to find a way to get the format to work with the Muppet characters and the Muppet characters to work with the format. And it can work if they give it a chance.
This article sheds a lot more light on some of the drama that was going on behind the scenes:http://deadline.com/2015/11/the-mup...ushell-exit-kristin-newman-reboot-1201606360/
I really agree with you here, it's the word reboot that is so worrisome, not the idea of the showing embracing another type of humor or plotting. Saying reboot makes me think of 1970s sitcoms where cast members would disappear from week to week, like how Doris Day randomly lost her children on her show between seasons or something.
A better word that has been thrown around the ToughPigs forum is 're-tool' rather than 'reboot'. They are only going to tinker with the show, not completely demolish it and than start it from scratch.
I really think this is a more true wording. ABC (as all the networks) are really wanting to have big hits in this hybrid over the air and digital age. The show has promise but isn't pleasing absolutely everyone. With one of this big forces leaving it is a great time to re-focus Prady and Barretta with whoever new is brought in.
It will be interesting to see what changes are made. I know that a lot of fans have complained about the more adult content as well as how mean the characters are (though I think the mean-ness dropped considerably after the first episode), maybe that will be toned down.
I'm hoping that we now get to see more of Late Night with Miss Piggy. So far, we've mainly just seen her interviews, plus a handful of musical performances and some of Fozzie's warm-ups. It's often mentioned that the show has sketches, but we never get to see them, we just occasionally hear about some of them. Maybe we could see characters rehearsing for the sketches (besides the writers acting out their own scripts), or see characters backstage getting ready to do a sketch (maybe we can just see them in costume and some of the props or set pieces).
Previous shows had characters overlapping between working backstage and on-stage, but on this show, it seems like each Muppet either works on-stage or as part of the crew. Though Fozzie did write a sketch in "Bear Left Then Bear Write", and Dr. Teeth mentioned writing a song the band performed in "Hostile Makeover". We should see more of the crew doing on-stage stuff every once in awhile, and also acts from characters who haven't been on the show (like Marvin Suggs and the Muppaphone, Bobby Benson's Baby Band, Wayne and Wanda...).
It seems like the last few episodes have had some changes already. The first few episodes each had several celebrities, one featured and others making cameos (if not being part of a sub plot). But these last few episodes have only had one guest star each (it also seems like Late Night with Miss Piggy only has one guest, and occasionally musical guests, per show... Is that how talk shows work?). It would also be great to see some episodes that don't really have celebrity guests. And the last few episodes have been more musical than the first two, hopefully this re-tool will allow even more musical numbers.
I'll need to look back at old articles and such to see which producer said what about the show. In Facebook comments somewhere, I had brought up that at Comic Con somebody said that the show is open to include any possible Muppet, while later reports said that certain characters who don't fit the format (chickens and talking foods are the only ones specifically listed as examples) likely won't appear, somebody pointed out that Kusner was the one who said that it won't have chickens or foods, and I think Prady was the one who said that any possible Muppet can be included. Maybe we'll start to see more characters who we thought wouldn't be included. I think it was also Prady who wanted to have the Muppets hang out at a bar when not doing the show, but we've only seen Rowlf's Tavern a few times. Maybe we'll see more of that place.
If the show does have more of the things that fans want from the show - more musical numbers, more show element, more characters (MORE ROWLF!) - would it be wrong to say that his departure was a blessing?
I agree that this sounds more like a tweaking retool than a "drop-everything-and-start-over" reboot. Especially since the other two executive producers are staying on board (though considering Bill Baretta is one of them, I'd expect him to stay!) The throwing around of "reboot" seems to be more from the over dramatic entertainment press than the actual network. It's such an overused word nowadays, anyway, that any change is called a "reboot" even when it's not.
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