The sad state of Muppet Movies since Jim Henson's death

Cleopigtra

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Not to ruffle to many feathers, but I believe that since Jim Henson left this life, the Muppets have not been as edgy as they once were. There is very little that is aww worthy, and the songs have lost some heart. The first three Muppet films all had songs nominated for Grammys and Oscars. Do you remember how you felt when the gang rode bikes? when Piggy did water ballet? Those great songs like 'Movin Right Along', 'The Rainbow Connection', and 'The Happiness Hotel'? Songs that made you want to get up and dance? When is the last time the Muppets had to face adversaries as cold as Doc Hopper or Lady Holiday's brother? To better the Muppets, to bring about these old feelings in a new generation, we need writers who remember the Muppets, who on't think they're merely cute, but see them as the little worlds of potential that Jim Henson saw them for.
 

Bulldawg

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i disagee

Sure it was a big loss when the founder/creator of the Muppets passed away but you have to realize that there were many great people surrounding him that helped get the whole thing off the ground...
we still have all the major puppeters, and if you look closely at all the movies(minus Manhattan), Jerry Juhl had a hand in the writing process of ALL the muppet films
i mean come on...you cant tell me that 'Treasure Island' and 'in Space' wasnt down right hilarious.

and it doesnt really bother me that they arent nominated anymore... because Muppets to me were never about that... i really didnt care for the songs... i liked that i could laugh forever.
 

Gonzo

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I do think there's a marked difference in the first three movies and the more recent three (since Jim's death); I don't know that I'd say the new ones are inferior...they're just different.

The Great Muppet Caper is my favorite of the Muppet films, and I don't know if there will EVER be another Muppet movie that compares to it in my book...but I know there are people on this board whose favorites are "Muppet Treasure Island" and even "Muppets From Space," which I really didn't like.

I do think you've hit the nail on the head though--that it's the writers/songwriters who make the biggest difference. I think there are moments in every Muppet film (so far) where the original wit and spirit of the Muppets comes through...but there are times it's painful to wait for those moments.

Quinnnnnnnnnn
 

frogboy4

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I agree with Quinn. The songs and writing in Muppet movies is what makes them special.

I didn't like Muppets From Space. I was embarrassed to be in the theater. I try to look at it as the characters going through growing pains. I hope I never see that low caliber sort of attempt from them again. Yes, the first 10 minutes were good, but the rest was just terrible in my opinion.

My faves are The Muppet Movie and Great Muppet Caper. Those films are what Muppets are all about in my eyes. I also enjoyed their new special. There is definitely room for improvement, but they are headed in the right direction.
 

Gonzo

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"Growing pains" is a good way to put it...a transitional period without Jim and Richard (and Frank, really) where they can learn their way around their new selves...."IAVMMCM" or whatever it is sort of felt like a breakthrough in many ways, most notably that Eric Jacobson and others have finally officially taken over Piggy, Fozzie, and other key characters, they've revoiced the significant minor characters as well, and the cast is in place for something good. And big. Big and good.

And big.

Quinnnnnnnnnnn

(and good)
 

beaker

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Well it has definately been a era of transition for JHC and the Muppets. But I think soon hopefully, in the coming year we'll finally be out of this decade plus mess.

Btw Jamie...another thing we agree on! Though I Say the first 15 minutes of MFS rocked! hehe(As well as any scene that has Pepe)

1999 saw two theatrical Muppet films(the other being Grouchland), both of which while having nice cinematography were less than stellar. Since then weve had Kermit's Swamp Years and Very Muppet Xmas. Ok, not exactly Muppet film proper, definately cool they are out of the 'classic fairy tale' retelling.

To me five ingredient are needed to make a Muppet film special:

REAL LIFE location shots(not a bunch of sound stages) JH original concepts for the movies were to take the Muppets out of the theatre and into real life locations. Sadly that hasnt happened since Follow That Bird.

Original moving music. My goodness, I think VMC had the first actual Muppet song in ages.

Chemistry. We just really havent seen the chemistry as high powered as before. In MFS it didnt seem urgent for the Muppets to band together as it did in the Muppet Movie and The Muppets Take Manhattan.

Very little screen time of human only scenes. Biy VMC dropped the ball in that aspect.

Smart writing. All these cameos of b stars just for some suspended sense of 'timeliness'(ie: MFS, VMC) is pretty lame.
Maybe something within the fabric of current JHC could allow for the conditions for Jerry Juhl(AKA The master Muppet writer) to come back...as I almost wanna puke at some of the ideas JHC has been thinking of for future 'movies'.
 

Super Scooter

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As Jim Henson himself said once (just paraphrasing): "A movie should leave me feeling good inside." I've felt that way with all Muppet films. Not the same way with each one, some more than others, but that's the way I feel. I feel good inside. That's what I want. I want anything I do to make people feel good, while at the same time making 'em laugh their pants off!
 

Cleopigtra

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Scooter is right. What I feel is slowly seaping out of the films and how the Muppets are presented is an appreciation for all ages. Though there are a lot of in jokes and some adult humor, the celebrities in the films seem to be treating them as kids movies. Matthew Lillard and Molly Shannon were the two 'humans' dealing with the Muppets that didn't seem like they were dealing with small children. The celebrities in days past didn't seem to talk down to the Muppets so much, thus they did not seem to be talking down to the many adults who enjoy the Muppets.
Does this make any sense?:confused:
 

sarah_yzma

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Originally posted by beaker
(As well as any scene that has Pepe)

*nods head in agreement* pepe will soon be a classic muppet....no matter what i think
 

frogboy4

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I think Joan Cusack did a good job too. She didn't really talk down to them. She was just manic. I cracked up everytime she was on screen. Very funny. I don't think she gets much credit for her performance in the special.

I think Cory hit the nail on the head about ingredients of a successful Muppet project. I think the real issue over the past decade has been lack of focus. Henson can't decide which direction they want to go with the Muppets.

The one thing they have forgotten is that the characters must reflect the times. This did not happen on Muppets Tonight. The whole - vintage TV studio/Arsenio Hall-esque - thing was still quite retro. When they finally chop the ponytail off Janice's hair, I will be assured that they finally get it.

The special is a hint that they know what they are doing. Still not quite there, but close. They know that even the young audience is savvier than what they came up with in MFS and some of the other projects. It's okay for the little ones not to get the joke and it's okay if some ultra conservative parents object. Some people reportedly objected to the "sexual tension" with Piggy and Kermit on the original Muppet Show. (Check the other threads)

Call it "edge" or whatever you like, but I view it as the Muppets waking up after a long sleep. They are not characters that make ferrie tales or kid's films. They are an adult group of characters that we can identify with. Some folks still lump them together with their Sesame counterparts and that is a big mistake. I think those who object to the recent "edge" just don't like the term (and I agree that it isn't the right term to use). It's not really edge, it's what they've always done - just in the year 2002 intstead of 1979. It'll take some time to get up to speed, but they are miles closer than they were just months ago.
 
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