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Discussion in 'Muppet Headlines' started by wherestheanykey, Mar 18, 2009.
I agree that Caper may well be the strongest of the movies, especially in terms of characterisation.
I always felt that MTM was The Muppet Movie in reverse. And... maybe sideways. Instead of meeting up, they actually break up.
It's a pretty lame recreation of how things were on The Muppet Show, when their relationship was crucial to several storylines... I always felt the movies showed them in a true relationship.... TMM, GMC, MTM....even to some extent MCC and MTI, they act as a couple, and are very happy about each other. I said this before a hundred times, but when it comes to their relationship, I don't mind Kermit being reluctant... Piggy, after all is a very big (ego, not size), loud, proud character... wonderfully flawed. But to keep playing the same tired denying rumors stuff they've been doing since Fleet Scribbler came about in every single interview, where there's no need for plot (and the writers just point them in that direction) is pretty tiresome. Hopefully this new project will see a return of the Piggy/Kermit loving relationship.
I definitely agree that the Great Muppet Caper is the best movie to use as a model.
I thought Piggy was a little vulnerable in MTM, but that was only because she saw Jenny as a threat. I loved Piggy's part in MTI, even though it was short. That was the first time since Jim's death that I really saw the confident and hilarious Piggy that I missed from the early years
I enjoyed MTM a lot when I was young and still do, but it did fuel some of the problems that plague the franchise today. The movie marriage and the real relationship status between Kermit & Miss Piggy, spawning the Muppet Babies spin-off that doesn't fit in any reasonable timeline established before, the implication that they are not as diverse in age and background having gone to college together, the limited cast members with speaking roles and limited use of the band. The Muppets have been following the MTM playbook too much and maybe the storybook adaptations were a reaction to that, but I think they should keep doing what the Disney Company seems to be doing now - going back to the roots of TMS. I just think TMM and GMC should be the film standard. MTM should just be enjoyed for the fun it is without any real modern associations.
I suppose that *was* the movie which set up the main cast as the main cast, and the others as supporting.
Although I'm not sure that it gave the band limited speaking...That's the movie I think of when thinking of the band, with Janice and Floyd's lines in the big Kermit blow-up, and Dr Teeth at Pete's Place.
That's true. Still, they seemed like less of the band there. It must be the whole college angle. I always felt that they hit the road playing small gigs rather than hitting the books. I always felt like Dr. Teeth teamed up with Zoot in New Orleans sometime in the mid 1960s and in the early 70s met up with Floyd, Janice and Animal on a road trip or open audition. That's just my take on how the Mayhem could have formed.
I don't want to dissagree and maybe I'm not. I feel that MTM was the way the Kermit and Piggy realtionship should have and still be to this day. They both needed each other, and when one of them could not be strong the other would stand up and take control of the problem.
I always felt that it should have been that way when Jim passed away. Frank would stand up and take care of the problem. He kind of did that in The Muppets Celebreat Jim Henson, but that seemed to be it. I'm not saying that Frank should have stop making other movies, or run JHC for that matter. I'm saying be the main prefromer. let Fozzie and Piggy take control and let Kermit and Steve get ajusted to not having Jim anymore.
The company was a mess after Jim died. It took years for the Muppet brand to rise again after that. Oz was already on the road to other non-Muppety things. It's good his characters have been recast. If Jim were alive all these years I have no doubt that Fozzie and Piggy would have been tucked a little into the background to be pulled out when Oz was available. That's the way it was heading with the Henson Hour and was continued post-Jim with MCC and MTI. Much of his work was dubbed in for those and all of it was dubbed for MFS.
The reality is they need a full-time performer. Oz (probably the finest Muppeteer of the lot) has already paid his dues. He deserves the creative life of his choosing. And that's exactly what he's doing. His performance depends on being there in the moment. He's even expressed that he's a character performer - not a voice performer. He's a retired Muppeteer who waves his crushed bowler cap every once in a long while.
As for the Manhattan relationship, I always found the dynamic in that film to be uncharacteristically syrupy throughout. A step backward rather than forward. I like the tension between the characters. That doesn’t mean constant bland insults, but the frog and the pig are best when exchanging flirtatious barbs rather than cooing together on a cute horse and buggy ride. It keeps things fresh and energetic rather than safe and complacent. The writers have yet to find that mix.
Well to a certain extent yes, but you can't go along with everything in the present if it begins to contradict who you are in a negative way.
I don't think Piggy lost any nerve in Muppets Take Manhattan. The real changes I saw were in the later when she was treated as just a joke.
I always felt the relationship needs to be in between those 2 extremes. Somewhere along the lines of Kermit and Piggy feel things for each other, but Kermit doesn't want Piggy to know he shares those feelings. Yet, he does genuinely care about her, and when brought up in the context of an important plot point, Kermit will deny it without being snarky about it. Sure, the occasional barb that gets the pig to karate chop him... but not to the extent of every single Kermit interview in the Post-Jim era. That gets tiresome.
I really think the line about Gonzo not playing the minister really makes the MTM relationship look like they were playing themselves in a movie, and the relationship was purely a plot device. That is, if they kept it in the movie.
Since there was possibly a cut scene (judging from one of the movie books), it does look like they originally wanted to go for a real marriage, but then backed off, leaving the ending more ambiguous. We're not really sure and that's why it's an intriguing ending.
Anyone know how I might be able to read the script......it seems to be all over the internet but not able to be found
As far as I know only two sources have had the script.
Never the original but...
It's never going to be the original three Muppet movies. How can it be? It's different people and it's a different time. I just hope we end up with a great movie! From the sounds of it, we probably will!
That's what I always say. We can never have the same thing, since most of the people that worked on those aren't around anymore... we can only hope it either captures the same spirit, or it's great in it's own right.
..... The guy just lost one of his best friends.
Has there been any recent news about the movie? Either from the Disney camp or the Segel camp? I am just curious, have not made it to MC as much as would like to recently.
Do you supposed Jason Segel is re-writing the script of the New Muppet Movie?
Just like any script I would assume it will have to go through several rewrites before a final script is finalized. That is pretty much standard on any major studio film.
I havent read this full thread, just the 1st post.
I am sooooooo excited.
Although somewhat apprehensive after the disasters of muppets from space- which was bad enough IMO but even worse was Muppets from Oz...which raised the question "why did they even bother..?"
I have to admit, im an obsessive, so only truly like the first 3 - Muppet Movie, Great Muppet Caper, Muppets take manhattan... and I do feel that the muppets of late have had rushed scripts, less budget, and kiddyfied- which further frustrates me, because Jim never meant it for kids.
Anyway, I think this looks pretty good. Dont think we'll ever get a perfect muppet movie again - the genius behind them has gone- (heh unless they got all us fans to collaberate!) but this looks like its at least trying to get back to the old school muppets....Im gonna stop before I go off on a rant about how much disney have ruined the muppets.... lol
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