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What if the New Muppet Movie's Villain had a Muppet Sidekick?

Discussion in 'Muppet Headlines' started by minor muppetz, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    Please note that the following is just speculation and wishful thinking about The Mupets new movie, and as far as I know has not been rumored beforehand.

    I've been thinking, about the upcoming Muppet movie (whatever they decide to call it); Could it be possible that the villian might have a Muppet sidekick (I know, anything is possible...)?

    It would be interesting. Though if this is going to be a "classic-style" Mupet movie the villian probably shouldn'y have a Muppet sidekick (Doc Hopper and Nicky Holiday didn't). But still, what if there is a Muppet workign for the villian?

    Seeing that this will be about the Muppets reuniting (though they've NEVER REALLY BEEN SEPERATED AT ALL!) I could see a classic character joining the villian. Don't know if J.P. Grosse would join somebody wanting to tear down his theater for oil, but it would be interesting if an existing obscure character were to join him. Maybe Mildred or Hilda, for being dropped after the first season (though I wonder if anybody would bother to train a new performer on how to perform Eren Ozker's characters). Or perhaps Angus McGonacle (as revenge for not getting his guest spot).

    Heck, this would be a good way to use Pepe. Seems like its rumored he's not in it (he's not in any of the publicity photos I've seen, and I think the review of the script said that he wasn't in the script). After being such a main character all these years (even without a consistient Muppet series) it would be a shame for Pepe to suddenly be dropped, especially since his performer is still an active part of the Muppet family. Would the sudden absense of Pepe be as shocking as the sudden absense of Rowlf and Scooter during most of the 1990s? Sure, any other major character could join the villian, but which character would be appropriate to work for the villian?

    Then again, considering Walter is supposed to be a Muppet fan, maybe the villian could have a sidekick who in the context of the movie used to be one of the Muppets but got fired and joined the villian, and was so obscure that nobody knows who he is. Or even a character who once auditioned for the Muppets but got rejected and would do anything to stop the Muppets.

    In a way this would also be a good way to use Uncle Deadley, though I don't know if he'd care about how known he is to the point of wanting to help the villian. I guess it would be too much to wish for Digit or Seymour to work for the villian (though that'd be an awesome surprise!). Clifford would make sense since he hosted Muppets Tonight and then more-or-less got dropped, but I don't expect Clifford to have any notable parts in this unless he's just in the background (unless Kevin Clash surprises us by participating).

    Please note that this was just a speculation/wish and is not rumored anywhere online.
  2. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    It would be shocking and terrible if Pepe is not included as one of the main core Muppets...a major major faux paus on the part of Segal and the entire Disney and Muppet crew if that pans out.

    But I hear you on the idea of a Muppet sidekick to the Chris Cooper character. However I'm thinking it should be a new Muppet created specifically for the movie. Maybe one even slightly Creature Shop-esque.
  3. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I don't like the idea of Pepe being a toadie for the bad guy. He flirted with that to an extent in VMX, and this film's plot is pretty close to that project as it is.
  4. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    Considering all the talk and images we've had about Walter, I wonder what the chances are that the film will have more original puppet characters who just haven't been mentioned in press releases or interviews.

    I just reread the script reviews that were posted a few years ago, and it seems I misremembered what was said about Pepe; One of those reviews said that he had only three lines in the script. So thankfully he appears to be in it (I hope they stretched out his role by now). Thinking about this, has Rizzo been in any publicity photos for the movie? The photo that showcases the cast includes two generic rats but no Rizzo.
  5. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Heheh, I could totally see a Muppet from a failed show, whether it be JHH or MT, (temporarily) joining the villain as revenge for a failed part of the dream. I agree with Drtooth ... Pepe's already tried that, but his heart is too good to go back to it.
  6. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    Maybe a newly-created character with a similar look to Henson's earlier characters could assist the bad guy. I wouldn't expect The Jim Henson Company to loan out any Sam and Friends characters for the picture, but maybe somebody similar. Though it would make sense for Sam to join the villian, since that was his show and he didn't last past it while Kermit did. When you think about it, Kermit is in almost every surviving episode while Sam is only in one of the surviving episodes (according to the script of the last episode posted at Jim Henson's Red Book site Sam wasn't even present in the final episode). It would also make things a bit similar to the concept of Epic Mickey (with Oswald getting revenge against Mickey Mouse).
  7. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Even with a Muppet sidekick somehow it just reminds me of Elmo in Grouchland and that little bug that helped the villain.

    I dunno... I'd personally like to see something similar to Max from the Muppet Movie, but then again, that would be just that... similar to the Muppet Movie.
  8. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Hey, better similar to The Muppet Movie than similar to Elmo in Grouchland. ;)

    I'm torn on this. I don't think it's completely wrong to use Pepe in this film, but then again this is supposed to be recapturing the spirit of the original Muppet films, which were successful, unlike their later projects. So if they're going to use Pepe, it makes sense for him to be eased into it, and then see how he can work going forward.

    The Muppets haven't had a truly blockbuster film since the early 1990s. If they're going to make a comeback, they do need to keep in mind what brought them success in the first place.
  9. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I don't see how it could be. None of the Muppets can single-handedly sell a bunch of talking dolls. Maybe they're a little too Animal heavy on the T-shirts, though... :flirt:

    Well, Pepe is pretty much one of the main characters now. And I don't blame him for the lack of a memorable film (he pretty much saved MFS and Oz for me). Muppet Studios and various Muppet personnel could have swayed the writers to add Pepe in a few more scenes, but we can't say that for sure until we see it. but then again, they really want the classic feel, and we're seeing their interest in keeping Scooter and Rowlf in there. They've been absent save a few lines for years. So, yeah, I'd say I'm torn too.
  10. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Oh no I'm not saying I blame the character. I mean, I will say Pepe was often given some of the more tasteless humor that the Muppets could do without (as opposed to actual adult humor ;) ). But there were other times where he could be very funny without resorting to that stuff. Like I said, I think he can be used again, but I personally would be in favor of seeing it how it plays out first.

    And that I'm not torn about at all. ;)
  11. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    The difference is that the bug villian wasn't really too evil. What I had in mind was an existing character (or a ficticious obscure character) who was the most affected by the Muppets splitting up and joined the villian out of spite. Or maybe joined the villian before the Muppets started to get back together and refused to get back with the others. Though if any existing character does join the villian I would expect him or her to turn good by the end.

    Muppet Treasure Island had several Muppet henchmen, as did The Great Santa Claus Switch (with Lothar pretty much being a sidekick).

    But I guess what I've been thinking is inspired a bit by a character in Rudolph and Frosty's Christmas in July. In that special there was a reindeer character who had been unemployed from helping Santa because of Rudolph, and chose to join the villian out of spite. Of course this character didn't get redeemed by the end of the special (I don't think he recieved any consequences for his bad deeds, either).
  12. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah that would be cool, I always like those. Much more interesting than the standard good guy that never makes mistakes.
  13. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    For the most part, evil sidekicks are usually not all that evil, and a good number of them wind up joining the good guys. Like Iago in Aladdin, or like Max and the bug in their respective Muppet films. I see a Muppet movie having that kind of sidekick villain. One that starts to disagree with the extremes of the main villain and starts getting sympathetic of the good guys... again, much like Max. But then again, cliches are cliches for a reason.
  14. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Yeah it's a cliche, but it's still a welcome one, lol. Even my film teacher said character conversion is a popular and effective way of making the plot go forward. ;)
  15. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    See, I don't get why people have been erasing Pepe from their minds. Roger did this with the Muppet show, and clearly some of those issues take place in the modern time.

    I think it's really Segal and other's lack of post JH knowledge; so they may not even be aware of Pepe. Pepe is one of the main Muppet characters whether people like him or not. Removing him or giving him a small role would be a bad move and feel out of place. Now I understand people's frustration with Scooter and Rowlf being left behind for non existent roles.

    Unless this was a remake of the original film, I see no reason why Pepe shouldnt be one of the main characters. Especially since its a meta-canon-fictional plot acknowledging all past Muppet work.

    Speaking of which, I wonder if Rowlf will reference being out of work/having a hard time finding work. He did that recently in an episode of Muppets Kitchen.
  16. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    You know, I was thinking...a really good evil sidekick would be a Creature Shop design, something Skeksis-like. Put a Skeksis in a suit and tie, perfect! I just saw Chris Cooper in the Company Men, and I loved him in Adaptation. I've no doubt he'll make a great bad guy.

    The second in command to the bad guy helping the good guys at the last minute/growing a conscience is part of many many films, cartoons, anime, etc. Heck even the original Star Wars trilogy used that device.
  17. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    I think when it comes down to it the JH-era Muppets and the Post JH-era Muppets are very different in a lot of ways, and their respective fans aren't always going to agree. I'd be more worried if Segal lacked knowledge of the Jim Henson era. ;)

    I do think Pepe is funny at times and has potential. But other times the jokes he was given just weren't called for and would never have been on the original Muppet Show. Though again I don't blame just that one character. And I didn't say he should just disapear forever or anything. More like a back to the drawing board kind of thing. That's part of what this movie is trying to do, figure out what will work when previous projects haven't.
  18. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    The film's central theme and plot is about how the public at large has turned their back on the Muppets. Although it won't say it directly, it's pretty much about how the public thinks the Muppets died with Jim Henson, and has been a lost cause nostalgia trip that's long had it's day.

    In the 80's and 90's, least merchandise wise, the Muppets main 5 core was "Kermit, Piggy, Gonzo, Fozzie and Animal". Rizzo got tagged onto their, but in the last decade the core changed to include Pepe. In some ways Pepe was seen to replace Animal as number 5.

    I personally can't see how "classic fans"(ie: those stuck in the TMS/original movie era) can even consider themselves real Muppet fans. I completely understand the whole classic trilogy SW fans vs new trilogy/clone wars. But there's been such an immense wealth of post JHH Muppety goodness(which includes Pepe), that for "classic fans" to turn their back on it...well, they're missing out. The Youtube videos, Muppets.com, the Disney Give A Day commercials...a treasure trove of amazing stuff. So to not include Pepe under the auspices of "keeping it old school" to me doesn't fly, as the film's spirit is very much in a post Apatow modern era sort of way.
  19. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Well that's your interpretation of their theme. The movie hasn't even come out yet. ;) Another interpretation is that the public noticed that the movies and projects in the 1990s weren't what they should have been.

    Recognizing quality entertainment that was hugely successful and has stood the test of time is considered being "stuck?" If that's being stuck, I wouldn't want to be let out. ;)

    That's your opinion and that's fine. That doesn't mean fans who don't like what you like are wrong. I certainly don't tell fans of post Henson Muppets that they aren't "real fans." It's just a different viewpoint. Something the Muppets deal with all the time. :)

    Kermit didn't like every skit that say Gonzo or Fozzie did on Muppet Show, does that mean he didn't really support the show or his friends?
  20. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    I see what both of you are saying. Personally, I see this as a simplistic framework that basically reflects the Muppet franchise falling into disrepair and most everyone has forgotten the magic they had. The reason doesn't have to be a clear one, but we all take our own guesses to the table. I wonder if they'll make a nod to Jim Henson. I think the use of Henson Studios demonstrates how the Henson Company is game for such homage. I mean, it's a froggin' Kermit movie for froggin' sakes! :)

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