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Worst Muppet Movie?

Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by MuppetFan12, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. Mo Frackle

    Mo Frackle Well-Known Member

    KSY's new characters are fun (I know most people aren't too fond of Pilgrim the Dog, but I don't mind her that much; though maybe that's just out of respect for Cree Summers). The song are okay. There are a few brief little bits strictly for the Muppet fans (including a brief bit with Kermit and his future best friend). The story isn't that bad. Then there's the jokes, which are... a mixed bag, I guess.
    SkeetScootSquat likes this.
  2. jvcarroll

    jvcarroll Well-Known Member

    Really? I'm amazed that you like it. Aside from the pet store number, I got absolutely no Muppety vibe from KSY. It's nothing more than a poorly constructed disposable home video for toddlers. The Muppet characters aren't supposed to be mucking around in such depths. There's little craftsmanship to the cinemaphotography either. It looks like some film school student shot it on a digicam. It's miles worse than MFS ever was IMHO.
  3. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    I can see what you mean, and to be perfectly honest with you, that's one of the reasons why I did like it... KSY came out during a time when I was still a kid, a kid who always had his head in the clouds, a lover, a dreamer, and you (well, okay, maybe not the last one, because how can I be you when you're you?), and that was also around a time where I was still familiarizing myself with puppetry, because that's what I wanted to do with my life: the look and feel to KSY made me think, "I can do that... I can DO that..." It's almost kind of like how Mary (in KSY, not The Muppets (2011) said she wanted to be a scientist ever since she saw The Wizard of Oz as a kid... granted, it was actually the Biography special on SST the year before that made me want to be a puppeteer ever since I saw it, but this movie kind of made me want to be a puppeteer (and a filmmaker) even more.

    :coy:
  4. jvcarroll

    jvcarroll Well-Known Member

    I see what you mean. I think the Muppetverse should leave the kids' market to Elmo. I'm not a huge fan of him, but he has his place and he does his thing without resorting to overly cutesy means. There's somewhat of bite to him while Kermit in KSY is all gums.

    The three greatest failures of the film are the human performances, the screenwriting and the production design. The swamp scenes have little texture to them. Jim Henson would tend to each and every detail, even in the corners of the screen. Life as a Pet is very Jim. Lots going on there. The rest of KSY looks like it was shot on the fly with no attention to detail. I dunno. I'm glad it inspired somebody. I know what that's like. I was 5 when the Muppet Movie first hit theaters and there no Muppet project more inspiring than that. I lucked-out. :)
  5. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    this is a real interesting topic and I have gone through and read everyones posts and was kind of suprised by some of the posts. I could sit here and defend all of the movies that everyone dose not like but I'm not going to do that, and I'm not going to say what I may or may not like about any of the movies.
    I will say this for a Muppet movie to be as good as it can be, the script has to be good. I have heard Brian Henson say you can take a good script and make a great movie, but you can't take a bad script and make a good movie.
    When Jerry juel stoped writeing for the Muppets I felt he should have past the job on to one person insteed of haveing many diffrent writers for the Muppets. I also feel that fans should not write Muppet movies. We have had this happen in the past and what we get is what there ideas of Who the Muppets are. We need to have someone step up and say yes I'm going to be the head writer for the Muppets and give them a chance to get the Muppets personalities back to the days of the Muppet Show and the fisrt three movies, buecause honestly since Muppets take Manhaten they have not truly been themselves. Sure there have been little gold gems of it but not like before, and I know they could get back to that if givin the right person for the right job.
    jvcarroll likes this.
  6. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    Script and production design aside, I do have to agree with you on the human performances... Dr. Mr. Krassman was a very large ham throughout, Mary was kind of bland and didn't have just a whole lot of charisma... Wilson the pet store owner was just about the best human character in the movie, and even he didn't have the greatest performances I've ever seen.

    Song-wise, I also agree, "Life as a Pet" is probably my favorite from the movie.
    jvcarroll likes this.
  7. Mo Frackle

    Mo Frackle Well-Known Member

    And let's not forget Goggles, Croaker, and Blotch. They were great.
    SkeetScootSquat and jvcarroll like this.
  8. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    Yes, as far as the new Muppet characters are concerned, I did very much like them.

    I like how, while incredibly cheesy, easily Goggles managed to break Blotch of his bullying ways, and the two of them became really good friends, since Goggles pretty much saved his life kind of... it makes a body wish it was that easy to change a bully in real life.
  9. Hubert

    Hubert Well-Known Member

    But realize that it is unrealistic for someone to step up and make themselves the Muppets head writer. At this point we're transitioning out of the Jerry Juhl period still, and being able to get a handle on writers. Jerry Juhl was around since the beginning, saw all the early days, saw Jim's visions for the Muppets...he really had a grasp of who they are. It took years and years for him to transition into the role of the main Muppet writer. It's hard to find someone now who really can capture the Muppets, as chances are they wouldn't have known the Muppet ins and outs the way Jerry did.
    Mo Frackle likes this.
  10. jvcarroll

    jvcarroll Well-Known Member

    The success of Muppet writing is in knowing the characters and then having them react to funny situations. That's what gives depth to the humor.
    Mo Frackle likes this.
  11. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    Another thing to remember too, is that Jim pretty much gave everybody who worked for him a great deal of their own creative control: he may have had a vision for something, but he let others take that vision, and turn them into something special. In fact, so many of the characters we know and love today are the results of the individual performers taking them and breathing their own life into them... I really can't think of a whole lot of characters (save for maybe Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch), where Jim himself figured out all of the details of how he wanted them to behave, act, sound, etc.
    Mo Frackle likes this.
  12. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    I have been watching Muppets Tonight season 2 on Youtube, and I have to say they really seemd to be getting in the grove of the show. It was just as zany or even zannier as the Muppet Show. Yes it did lack some classic Muppets at times, but I really think they where getting more of a mix near the end of the show. they had it, but ABD/Disney did not know what they had and sadly it did not get more of a chance.
    MissMusical12 likes this.
  13. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    Crud I had a post typed out, hit post, got an error message, and when I hit back everything I typed was gone. Forget you, board software code.

    Actually, according to Spinney's The Wisdom of Big Bird, Henson didn't have Big Bird's role figured out at the start. Originally Big Bird was a village idiot type. It was Spinney who, after filming a scene in which the bird threw a tantrum because he couldn't go to daycare, hit on the idea of playing Big Bird as a child instead of a doofus.

    A significant part of Jim Henson's genius was his ability to find the right people, put them in the right spot, then turn them loose and let them do their thing. He cultivated creativity, not control. Sadly, this is not an approach I foresee Disney ever taking.

    (Copying post, just in case the board software eats it again)
  14. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    The funny thing is this:

    http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Frog_School

    It was meant to be a preschool TV series, but it was turned into a preschool movie. It had preschool written all over it even before the film came out. It was yet another in a long line of preschool Muppet projects like Muppets on Wheels and the Preschool Play Along videos. The difference is, it looks like KSY was trying to wear the disguise of a family movie, instead of a movie-ified unrealized TV show for preschoolers. I have to admit, I've never been a big fan of the Preschool Muppet projects. Muppet Babies was less juvenile than some of them. Though, and I can't stress this enough, Wow you're a cartoonist for Picklepuss and Pops. Only redeeming value.

    Well, arguably Kermit was pretty toothless in MFS, probably more so. Kermit was only in MFS for brand recognition. While I think Sweet Kermit is very present in MCC, and Kermit had bouts of Kermit as Kermit in MTI, it really wasn't until VMX where he came back. Those were problems with writing, MFS especially.
    jvcarroll likes this.
  15. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    That was pretty much my point: no, his vision of Big Bird isn't the same Big Bird we know and love today, but still, Jim had pretty much figured out how he thought he wanted Big Bird to turn out: he wanted Big Bird to be sort of a village idiot, big and dopey, with that deep, silly-sounding voice... that's one of the very rare examples I can think of where he figured out the details of a character beforehands, as opposed to just letting the performers do their own thing with them (even though we know Caroll eventually decided to take Big Bird in another direction for the better).
  16. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    Point taken, But mine also stands: Jim let the performer take the character in a different direction when he thought better. I can't see Disney letting the performers have that much freedon.
  17. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    To be fair, the Muppets Disney owns are well established characters. Any case of Flanderization or character rot already happened with post-Jim films. Other than the Moopets and Walter, who are creations of the film writers, Disney isn't going to muck about with the characters too much. If anything, they'll be intent on freezing the characters as we know them. And considering Fozzie's slide to stupid town in MTI- MFS, that's not really a bad thing.

    But no matter what, a character is created both by the series runner and the actor. Muppets, TV characters, cartoons... Look at how much Nemoy shaped the character of Spock to the extent of changing stories that didn't reflect his interpretation of the character. Big Bird becoming a fuller character is no different than Miss Piggy becoming one. Actually, Piggy's situation was almost worse. She was flipped around between two performers, but when Frank Oz ad libbed a Karate chop, the character grew ever since.

    But that's the difference between established and upcoming characters. When an established character changes oh so little, they become out of character and they're "urined forever."
    Duke Remington likes this.
  18. Princeton

    Princeton Active Member

    What characters got this luxury besides Uncle Deadly? And how was the Kalidahs scene any different than their heckles on TMS?
  19. D'Snowth

    D'Snowth Well-Known Member

    For the halibut, here's how I rate each of the Muppets movies, both theatrical and TV, based on the traditional four-star movie rating system:

    The Muppet Movie (1979) - ****
    The Great Muppet Caper (1981) - ****
    The Muppets Take Manhattan (1984) - ****
    The Muppet Christmas Carol (1992) - ***
    Muppet Treasure Island (1996) - ****
    Muppets From Space (1999) - ***
    Kermit's Swamp Years (TV, 2002) - ***
    It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie (TV, 2002) - *
    The Muppets' Wizard of Oz (TV, 2005) - **1/2
    The Muppets (2011) - ****
  20. Muppet fan 123

    Muppet fan 123 Well-Known Member

    Muppets Wizard of Oz is my absolute worst. Followed by Muppets From Space.
    I haven't seen KSY yet, I plan to as soon as I get my hands on a copy of those.

    I think you're being too generous to MWoZ.


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