The things some "fans" say...

[Drtooth]

The problem with new projects ISN'T the lack of Jim's Kermit, but rather the lack of Jim's vision and Jim's leadership. We all know Jim was so much more than his characters... would anyone else have bothered with something like Dark Crystal or Labyrinth when they had a franchise that made money and was time tested?

Recasting a character is one thing, but vision and leadership are quite another. Look at the sad state Henson is in right now. Other than a CGI show that doesn't employ any regular puppeteers as animators or voice actors, they're struggling to make a name for themselves. Had Jim been around, they would have had at least ONE big project perk them up. Disney was struggling to get back to the glory days after Walt died. And once they found their stride under Michael Eisner, he got cocky and everything went to pot again. And that's the best case scenario.

I mean, recasting Mel Blanc for various Looney Tunes roles is one thing, but it took people like Chuck Jones to have a unique vision for those characters. Some of his last LT shorts made in the 90's even had some of that great old feel to them without Mel. But then again, even with Mel, the late 1960's Friz Freling shorts just didn't feel right. Some weren't even funny at all. MCC and MTI were both written by Jerry Juhl and had some of that feeling as well, even without Jim or Richard. The Muppets were always a team effort... so it's also a problem with writing and direction. The writers for MT didn't even find a direction for the show until the show was canceled.

This thread is specifically about recasting a role, which is inevitable. No one lives forever, people leave because the role wasn't right for them. That happens EVEN when the original cast is around. But when the leader of something so massive dies/leaves, that's something you can never recapture.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

i dont think anyones calling anyone a traitor,for not liking something...but people can be pretty stubborn headed when it comes to accept change to their beloved tv show or movie verse and its not just Muppet fans, its all franchises...so comes the term fanboys and why every movie when a fan complains you hear "Stupid Fanboys".

 

[CensoredAlso]

i dont think anyones calling anyone a traitor,for not liking something...but people can be pretty stubborn headed when it comes to accept change to their beloved tv show or movie verse and its not just Muppet fans, its all franchises...so comes the term fanboys and why every movie when a fan complains you hear "Stupid Fanboys".

This is not about accepting change. These same fans have accepted change from the Muppets many times. The Muppets changed a lot from the '70s to the '80s and these fans had no problem with it. This is not about agreeing with changes, this is about recognizing that the current system has not been working.

Some fans will have different opinions. There's a lot more Muppet fans in the world outside of Muppet Central. They don't deserve to have their fan status questioned by putting it in quotes as the title of this thread did. They're not being stubborn and they're not being stupid. That's just not fair. Is this what being a Muppet fan means now? Agree with us or get out? I hope not...

 

[Drtooth]

This is not about agreeing with changes, this is about recognizing that the current system has not been working.

Again, this is about voice recasting. MFS wasn't a bad movie because Steve was Kermit, it was because a bunch of internal problems with the script and directors and overall lack of vision under Henson's new management.

Somehow, Disney only a had a couple misses... Cat Cora for one thing. But other than that, they had a very aggressive plan lately that had the very focus and vision the last batch of Henson produced Muppet projects (INCLUDING Oz). Muppet viral videos? Jim Henson would have so tapped into the Youtube/viral video market. That's the kind of visionary he was, and that's how much he loved new media. Since then Sesame Street took to it, albeit slowly, but Henson has been a hold out.

Think about it this way, while the script of the new film was in production since before 2008, it got all the attention and focus of Disney's Muppet segment and it eventually came into being. With Henson, they've had 4 or 5 major projects since 2005 or so (POTDC even longer) that haven't even got to the pre-production phase. Vision and focus... that's two of the many things Jim brought to the table. And any project (other than Dino Train) they've had that actually went through disappeared in less than a few weeks. If Henson still owned Kermit and the gang, we wouldn't even see a new DTV movie for a few years. Look at how many scripts they were looking at after VMC that never got produced. heck, there were a bunch of better scripts and plots that could have been used instead of MFS.

Disney was reluctant at first, but they went for a script some famous fans wrote and badgered them to do while they were doing another film with Henson's company providing puppets. They clearly saw something special, even just the famous names attached.

Disney isn't Jim by any means, but at least they have the focus and disapline to get something done. What? We had like 3 small projects that didn't happen? And that's because they felt they weren't up to snuff for the first 2 and one couldn't have been done in time.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Again, this is about voice recasting. MFS wasn't a bad movie because Steve was Kermit

Let me clarify though, I'm not bashing particular voice castings. I'm just saying that fans preferring Jim Henson doesn't equal disloyalty.

 

[Drtooth]

Here's the thing...

Some fans want to see more stuff, some fans don't. There's clearly a rift between the two. There are some with a fiercely negative attitude (not you specifically, but there are others), and that negative attitude seems to ruin the enjoyment of those that want to see something new.

Like I said, many things are factors in why the latest projects were uneven. It takes time to bring things to a near normal level when someone leaves/dies.... and even then, they can only get close. Though, again, storywise I like the Mouseworks Mickey shorts over most of the original ones, and the 1960's revival Looney Tunes shorts were very hit or miss. Some people accept this and just want to enjoy stuff for what it is, some don't.

Not liking them is one thing, but there are a LOT of very negative people who want all the new stuff to fail. I don't think any fan of anything wants anything new to fail, even if they don't like it, because they get shelved perminantly in mothballs.

Still, I wish Disney would release more of the Classic Jim Henson based Muppet projects on DVD. Half of everything survives on fading VHS tapes and illegally bittorrented. How can you show a new generation how wonderful these things are if no one has access to them? That's partially where new stuff comes in.

 

[minor muppetz]

Some people here have mentioned fans saying that Kermit, Bugs, and Mickey shoudl have died with their performers. But unlike Kermit or Bugs, Mickey was recast while Walt was still alive (and Wayne Alwine took over while James MacDonald was still alive).

 

[CensoredAlso]

Still, I wish Disney would release more of the Classic Jim Henson based Muppet projects on DVD. Half of everything survives on fading VHS tapes and illegally bittorrented. How can you show a new generation how wonderful these things are if no one has access to them? That's partially where new stuff comes in.

Oh I do agree, I think there are times when new stuff can help generate excitment for the old stuff. I'm all in favor of that. And if would save a heck of a lot of production time and money if they'd just release the projects that have already been done, lol.

 

[Fraggline]

Why? I'm willing to listen.

(I used Gonzo because I was reminded of his conversation with Paul Simon, lol).

I love Gonzo. What a patient alien.
Anyway, about the quote on kermit's performers: I understand why a person would not like the change; in fact, change is not often one of my strong suits. However, I agree with Duke Remington--Steve Whitmire is an excellent performer for Kermit. Honestly, the idea that Whitmire would not be good enough almost makes me want to cry. In my opinion, he brings us the spirit of the Muppets that is cheerfully trying to preserve Henson's creativity and dreams.
I hope that didn't sound too stupid.

 

[Fraggline]

Wait a minute...maybe I was too ignorant. After all, the quote did say that Whitmire is talented. And I definitely have felt that a character has changed along with his/her performer. That's how I felt about Arthur when I watched the show.