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If Jim hadn't died in 1990

Discussion in 'Henson People' started by Quesal, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    Well don't get me wrong I love the fact that Jim loved to be creative. I think in a lot of ways creativity is dead in today's Hollywood,with some rare exceptoions. Hearing your alls comments though I'm not going back on what I said,but I am changing it some. Jim was very talented and the work he did not only with the Muppets but on his fantisy movies where outstanding. Sometimes thought we can get to many irons in the fire and I think that may have happend to Jim.

    I was also thinking that in todays time movies like Dark Cristal and Laberath would have done very well. they could have had there own playing cards (Like Pokeimon) very deataild video games,and a whole lot more. The teens of today would be more open to both movies and I think that when the Power of the Dark Cristal does come out it will do very well.

    One last thought: I think something that will always make me a little confused is why JHC sold the Muppets and SS Muppets. They where really what started the comany and really in my eyes what would help the comapny grow now. Yes they are doing a lot of differnt things but why would you give up the thing that really started it all?
  2. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I think that was the problem with the fantasy movies: bad timing. I don't think they would've been the same without Jim, so it was important that he did those movies while he was still around. However, there are some zeitgeists and marketing techniques (like trading cards and such) that would have helped those movies had they come out more recently.

    Also, I remember thinking Dark Crystal and Labyrinth were really strange and bizarre when I was a kid. I appreciate them far more now that I'm an adult. Those two movies, in my opinion, are just movies you have to grow into ... which doesn't help the bottom line when it's in theaters ... but they still have the capacity to be popular.

    About the sales: I get how everyone felt that they didn't have enough hours in the day to deal with all the franchises/projects. However, the Henson company is divided into different sub-areas, right? So why not have a Muppet and SS sub-division? Because the performers, perhaps, were too spread thin. Though, I don't see how selling the franchises helps that problem. The focus should have been on training and developing replacements so the core staff didn't have to feel ... uh ... attached by the arm, so to speak.
  3. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    While reading your posts I am reminded of an old Wayne Gretzky quote.

    "You miss 100% of the shots you never take."

    Jim took chances and strived on taking chances. He took a chance with the Muppets and had great success. The success of the Muppets gave him opportunities to go out a take bigger chances. Jim was a risk taker and strived on new ideas and new thoughts. SS = risk = success. FR = risk = success. What makes you think that Jim should have stuck with just the Muppets? He had many projects that were wonderful successes. Just because he had some less successful projects towards the end of his career does not mean that he should of just stuck with the Muppets. Honestly if we look at it, SS came first so if Jim didn't take a chance we may never have had the Muppets. Heck, if Jim didn't take a chance on S&F we may have never had anything. So I will say that I disagree with you. Not only do I disagree with you but I could not be more firm in my beliefs that you are absolutely wrong.
  4. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Why the Muppets are at Disney and Henson is Fraggles & Fantasy:

    In various articles before Jim Henson's death he admitted to selling the Muppets (in particular) to Disney because he felt that the mouse could take good care of Kermit and the gang while Jim focused on other types of projects. Sure, he'd come back to the Muppets - always, but he didn't have to give the brand such constant attention that it deserved. He was getting old; feeling his age and there was so much more he wanted to do. :sleep:

    The rub is that Disney, while they wanted the Muppets, wanted Jim more. When he died mid-merger Disney's price dropped dramatically. The family had to hold the company together. Frank Oz wanted to go out on his own and focus on directing non-puppet projects, Brian wanted to develop his own properties and there was a void where Jim Henson's direction should be.

    After much moving about with the Muppets, they finally arrived back at Disney - where I believe (like Jim) they truly belong. Time will tell. I'm not that excited about mouse ownership, but that appears to be exactly what it is - ownership. The studio will hire-out talent to write and direct these pieces while doing what they do best...product marketing, exposure and financial support. That's the goal anyway.

    JHC without Jim's leadership was never equipped to deal with such a big brand as the Muppets even though it was built by them. That's a hard truth to swallow, but a fairly accurate one. Sesame Street was always to be under the CTW (now SW) banner. It works best as its own property and Jim seemed to know that. They were never up for Disney's pudgy four-fingered hands. :p

    Fraggle Rock is something the Henson Company kept and it's something they can grow in house. But see, the reason why the Dark Crystal sequel and the Fraggle Rock movie are taking so long is that Henson is still a very small company. If the Muppets were still owned by them we would have a lot less variety, a lot less projects and a lot less Muppets too! The Jim Henson Company is in many ways a small-scale independent film company with big ideas. :scary:
  5. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    interesting read frogboy. Well written.
  6. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Just wanted to say I enjoyed Labyrinth from the very beginning. I do speculate though that the reason it wasn't commerically successful was that people weren't sure what the intended audience was. Some people may have thought it was a Fantasy for children and turned away. But then others thought it was a bit too grown up for children.
  7. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    I tend to disagree. Jim Henson was already trying to shove off Kermit & co over to the Mouse before he croaked (sorry!). I also don't see how he would have kept SS adult-friendly. It's not like he owned the thing. Elmo might still have been an attention hog. Piggy already was. Jim was thinking of Dinosaurs, where another Clash character became an attention hog (though, strangely, in my opinion, a more tolerable one than Elmo). Life was "movin' right along" ... with or without him. Maybe a couple of details would have changed, maybe not.

    And I also don't think Disney would care either way. They slap the Mouse, the Frog, the Princess, or the Fairy on a plastic lunchbox and call it a day. I was always amazed that the Hensons believed Disney took care of its own characters. In what way? Besides the cool House of Mouse ... we get the Princess Line of merchandise ... and now Fairies? Disney doesn't treat its own characters as though they were real ... unlike the Muppets. When's the last time you saw Snow White or Scar or Buzz on a talk show? Thought so. All I ever see are some toys, sheets, and spots on parades. True, it's been years since I've been to Walt Disney World ... but photo-ops don't strike me as the same thing. The closest thing I've seen to awesome is that Muppet Labs thing on youtube. THAT is how you make your characters look alive ... not just some silent cosplayer who'll wave at your camera.

    Of course, I still want to see a huge staged Kingdom Hearts battle at Disney World. Bring that level of coolness and I'll forget how we were treated the last time we were there and I'll get in that park.
  8. Colbynfriends

    Colbynfriends Active Member

    That would be awsome (i am a big KH fan)

    If Jim didn't die in 1990, I belive that the muppets would have had a really big revival by now. i also feel that more classic characters would have made a reaperance in the newer shows, and movies such as making the Electric Mayhem the Muppets Tonight house band.
  9. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    Are any Muppets in any of the KH games
  10. Colbynfriends

    Colbynfriends Active Member

    No, but that would be cool. just imagine, Sora as a muppet, and Kermit with a keyblade fighting Doc Hopper. Maybe in Kingdom Hearts 3.
  11. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    Still the Muppet movies were coming out through the eighties and TMS reran forever.
  12. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Not much was really kept afloat after Jim died. Efforts were less consistent. I really do feel the Muppets have been coasting for over decade and a half. If Jim hadn't died - Disney would have kept the Muppet brand strong to please him and allowed him to branch out into other media. The separation of properties among Disney, Henson Co, Henson Legacy and Sesame Workshop really do serve them and us better. I don't always like it and think they could stand to play better with one another (the Emmet Otter Kermit cuts were asinine) but in time it could improve. Each company is trying to strenthen the brands they own.
  13. Super Scooter

    Super Scooter New Member

    One thing I wanted to comment on, and it's kind of incredible to think about, is that the time that has passed since Jim Henson's death (almost eighteen years now) has been longer than the amount of time in which he had really experienced success with his characters, which was only about fourteen years. The Muppet Show, at least according to Frank Oz on Henson's Place, was really the start of Jim Henson's big success. I personally would have considered him a success long before that with how creative and humorous his creations have always been, but in terms of fame and fortune, his success started with The Muppet Show. Sesame Street was a success, but in a different way than The Muppet Show, which was the kind of show Jim really wanted to be doing for several years. With The Muppet Show came an explosion of merchandise and opportunities that he hadn't had before. But since his death, I agree with Jamie. It does seem like the Muppets have sort of been coasting... for eighteen years. It just feels so odd to me that it's been so long. What came about during those fourteen years seems to be so much more than what's happened in the last eighteen. Not the amount, necessarily, but the type of things being produced.

    And, don't get me wrong with that last comment, I really enjoy the majority of work the Muppets have put out since Henson's death, and I think, for the most part, those who have continued his legacy have done very well. It just seems like there should be more. I'm hoping a lot comes of the next couple of planned films (Muppets, Fraggles, etc.).
  14. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    I still think the brands would be stronger if they were all together. One of thier strengths was the cross over factor. We have lost that.
  15. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    It is hard to believe that we are a few days away from 18 years since we lost him. I remember it like yesterday.
  16. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    I overheard some people discussing Will Ferrell recently, though they said that it's hard for him to always be funny because he does so many movies a year.
  17. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    I think Will Ferrell could make that jump to a serious actor. I like him alot
  18. dwayne1115

    dwayne1115 Well-Known Member

    It's funny the things that Jim made that where succsussful and the ones that did not do so good.
  19. Kuriboh Man

    Kuriboh Man Active Member

    If Jim Wasn't Dead I would wish I could meet him right now.
  20. unclematt

    unclematt Active Member

    I would love to meet him. I have also been looking for an authentic Jim Autograph and I can only find preprints


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