Nine Years Later: Disney buys Muppets and Bear

[Drtooth]

Here's what I don't get about the whole Muppet Babies situation: A quick check of Muppet Wiki clearly indicates plenty of episodes from the show's run have been released commercially. If use of copyrighted film footage from different companies was the problem getting the show on DVD, how come it's no problem to release them in 2004 but not in 2012? I can't say I'd ever need a box set of the show, but the fact that it was one of the first kid's cartoons to really gain an adult fanbase during it's original run and was the marketing behemoth it was in the late 80s into the 90s, putting the show out on DVD wouldn't hurt the franchise as a whole in the long-term.

Hate to double post, but I really want to deal with the Muppet Babies.

Minor Muppets is correct. Someone associated with the show did say that the rights are all cleared up. That's not the problem. There is a two fold bugaboo to all of this.

First of all, Disney's doing the right thing by not giving us Muppet Babies stuff just yet. They've spent enough time building up the brand of classic characters. The Muppet Baby variants this early in the game would muck that up. There are those who only know the Muppets through Muppet Babies. We wouldn't want to see that happen under Disney. If The baby versions became too popular, that's all we'd see. If Disney wants to use the Muppet babies brand at some point, they need to slowly build it up after the Muppets are more established (after the next movie, maybe). And even then, I'd like them to start with Muppet Babies baby products (bibs, diaper bags...etc) then move onto nostalgia based collectibles and home video.

Secondly, Disney hates home video that isn't a movie. Ask anyone who has one of their unfinished series box sets of Disney Afternoon cartoons (the ones with NO special features at all). The best they've done with Phineas and Ferb (their most popular TV series right now) is 12 cartoons (of 15 minutes each) on 2 disks. Even their Avengers cartoon is in volume by volume single disk collections (at least in the US). Things have gotten better with Ultimate Spider-Man volume 1 (12 full episodes). So I don't even expect a Muppet Babies DVD box set if they can't even do it with any of their other owned licenses. Not even Ewoks or Droids.

 

[muppetlover123]

i would love to see some muppet babies DVD's but sadly i dont think it will happen

 

[mupcollector1]

You do realize that, unlike Disney, Henson has been trying to get so many projects off the ground...

Yeah, I see what you mean about the struggle that JHC had with funding budgets for the Muppet projects and everything. But I wish in some way Disney still had JHC a apart of The Muppets. For example the Puppet Heap switch, I still don't know what happened with that other then something I heard that JHC wanted a little more money which is totally understandable to help fund the alternative projects and Disney turned them down. Why? I don't get that at all. But yeah Disney has the money to do stuff, they are one of the top entertainment empires of America and there's only a few that are big (Warner Bros, Viacom, NBCUniversal, etc) And I am greatful that they can fund Muppet movies. Like having one in 2011 and another one coming up for 2014. That's pretty good timing wise and not so much a gap between Muppets From Space which was the last feature before The Muppets (2011) which was 1999 I believe. Though my opinion and complaint over the current stuff and again It's just my opinion. But I strongly feel that there's lack of what The Muppets were to me. I know there's fans who are going to disagree and I respect everyone's opinion on here but The Muppet humor isn't as irreverently funny as it was on The Muppet Show. Miss Piggy used to karate chop people all the time if a mention of a pig related joke or her weight, Explosions (It's cool that Crazy Harry is coming back and did a few in the new movie and even blew himself up for a change and of course he enjoyed it. lol But Crazy Harry would blow up other Muppets when ever there was a pun related to explosions. The Muppets used to be out of control backstage and Kermit would have these anger management problems where he would just be yelling at everyone. For example the Peter Sellers episode, all these crazy things are happening and Scooter would remind Kermit he's either talking or shouting to himself. Besides the Muppet Monsters who would eat other Muppets when you least expected it like the Wayne and Wanda song "You meat a stranger, He said MEAT NOT EAT!" which brings me to my last observation of Muppet humor which is the campy pun anything for a laugh style. There would be these bad pun jokes or running gags that were just great and someone like Kermit would put on his trademark look of disgust and shout "OUT OUT OUT!". And some of that Muppet humor would also apply to the classic Sesame Street episodes minus the explosions and monsters eating other characters. But even that's kind of fading away. Plus the rock musical numbers and finally just the weird for the sake of weird sketches like Hugga Wugga Buggy Mugger for example or that chin puppet opera that Jim and Jerry did on a Muppet Show episode one. Something so silly and ridiculous it doesn't matter if it didn't make any sense. Even the slapstick of Waldorf and Statler falling out of the balcony from time to time. I personally miss all that. I feel that Muppets Tonight was the last project to have that. It's nice seeing the main characters in new specials and movies. But I feel there's so much more to The Muppets that's not being presented. I have no idea if it's regarding PC politics or censorship of some belief that comedy back then isn't okay now or why the reason. It's like taking the cartoon violence out of Looney Tunes (aka The Looney Tunes Show), or taking the cutting edge of Mad Magazine out (CN Mad), it can't be done. I remember hearing Frank Oz talking about this sort of thing and the edgy cutting edge of The Muppets. I'm surprised that there was fans that disagreed with Frank but from what I've heard, I agreed with everything he said. Again, this is just my opinion and I know not everyone is going to agree with me because we're all fans of The Muppets in different ways. I like the humor and puppetry style. Others are fans of the characters or songs or the harmony overtones that come from time to time and that's okay, I respect that. The harmony aspect of The Muppets is still there and I'm greateful for that, but the irreverent humor isn't. I'd love Frank Oz to come back to The Muppets and even write some scripts and direct, same with Brain Henson. I believe Brain was in charge of Muppets Tonight and he directed Muppet Christmas Carol and Muppet Treasure Island which I felt was the best after Jim's time.


As for the current Jim Henson Company, for the most part I love the new Henson Alternative division but I would love for them to come up with something as satirical as Dinosaurs. There was some stuff that was kind of crude and pointless that I've seen floating on the internet like this christmas video. But I thought Stuffed and Unstrung and Tinseltown was really good. I'm really excited to see Happy Time Murders, the R rated movie Brain Henson is going to direct. I hope it becomes the next Meet The Feebles or Team America. Even if it was an independent film, I'd be happy to see it. Feebles was an independent film. Or if there was a way for JHC to collaborate with Troma or someone like that, that would be really cool. Plus Trey Parker and Matt Stone are in works with their movie studio "Important Studios" so you never know, cross your fingers. I know I'll be!

 

[Drtooth]

To answer your question...

A franchise can not and never has been able to be perfectly frozen at the height of their popularity and perfection. It doesn't matter if it's the same guy owning the franchise (Star Wars under George Lucas) or that the creative force behind that franchise dies/leaves (Jim Henson in this case), a franchise will change its shape over time with new projects. And if you don't get new projects, the franchise falls into obscurity and ill care, and people only care about it nostalgically. Look at Sesame Street. It's been on 43 years, and it changed dramatically, some of it not through fault of their own. Why? because when Sesame Street premiered, the only other educational kids show was Mr. Rogers. Now we have 24 hour a day cable networks devoted to kid's programming. Times change franchises. It happens.

There are a few good points, but a LOT of it sounds like stodgy nostalgia gripes... for example:

But I strongly feel that there's lack of what The Muppets were to me. I know there's fans who are going to disagree and I respect everyone's opinion on here but The Muppet humor isn't as irreverently funny as it was on The Muppet Show. Miss Piggy used to karate chop people all the time if a mention of a pig related joke or her weight, Explosions (It's cool that Crazy Harry is coming back and did a few in the new movie and even blew himself up for a change and of course he enjoyed it. lol But Crazy Harry would blow up other Muppets when ever there was a pun related to explosions. The Muppets used to be out of control backstage and Kermit would have these anger management problems where he would just be yelling at everyone.

Where do I begin?

You're basically saying a movie isn't as good as a TV show, when... let's face it, what worked on the Muppet Show doesn't work in film. There was no continuity to the show, they could do whatever they wanted, and they were able to have short plotlines revolve around cartoonish gags. it works for 22 minutes, but it gets tired in a 90 minute movie. Piggy's Karate chop at fat jokes (other than the fact it became a Flanderized aspect that got very tired over time) has never happened in any movie except for a pivotal plot point in MTM. And I completely discount the action sequence in TMM, where it wasn't played for laughs (well, different laughs, anyway). Monster eating each other? Never in The Muppet Movie, never in Great Muppet Caper, never in Muppets Take Manhattan. Just the show. Heck, Piggy didn't even attempt a chop on anyone in Muppet Family Christmas. Most of the stuff you mentioned is completely absent from that too. Crazy harry? A cameo in the first film, possible GMC... never seen again. Sweetums? He becomes a sweet character on film.

So basically, what was missing in the new movie was stuff missing from all the movies that wouldn't work in a movie. The only bit in the new movie that attempts to be the TV show is the floor show, and the Barbershop Quartet segment would like to differ. Beaker wielding an axe for a hair cut? That's Muppets. I get what you're saying, but that's only a concern if they bring back a TV show and miss that stuff.

Except the viral videos totally did that stuff. Big Mean Carl bonking rabbits on the bead and eating them? Still there. Swedish Chef blasting some pumpkins into pie? There again. Even those dreadful cooking show segments had elements to them that work only in the confines of short form comedy.

Above all, things are never going to be the same no matter who's in charge. Looney Tunes is a perfect example. the supposed die hards hate ANYTHING that isn't the 40's and 50's oeuvre. Taz-Mania, Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries, Duck Dodgers, newly created shorts, and yes, Looney Tunes Show. But the thing about those shows is that they're trying pretty hard to recapture a feeling. Then you look at Baby Looney Tunes and Loonatics Unleashed... THOSE are the cynical cash grabs that destroy franchises that have nothing remotely likable about them. LU was a toy commercial that didn't garner any toys, not even a Happy Meal promo. It's careless garbage like that I personally have a problem with. Not "Almost there but not quite" because almost there not quite is the best you can do without the creative driving force. heck, sometimes with.

 

[mupcollector1]

There are a few good points, but a LOT of it sounds like stodgy nostalgia gripes....

Well that's your opinion. And I respect that. Agree to disagree. Like I mentioned, there's fans that like the new stuff and that's okay, that's their opinion. I respect that even though I don't agree within my own opinions.

But I see what you mean in terms of movies, movies need a story structure like the three acts.
ACT 1: Introducing the setting, characters, etc
ACT 2: The problem the characters face
ACT 3: Happy Ending

Unless if it's a sketch anthology movie which is very rare for mainstream now a days, the film needs a plot structure. Though from my point of view I noticed how the first two Muppet Movies had this written structure kind of similar to the Mel Brooks and Zucker Brothers way of writing. Fast pace gags through out. If it's a running gag or even a street sign in the background. I've noticed this in The Muppet Movie and The Great Muppet Caper. I really like how the gags where written. Even the lyrics to Happiness Hotel. "If that's the Happiness Hotel, I'd hate to see what the sad one looks like." lol There was this comedy style of wit and irony in there, very cleaver. And just in general in comedy in American film and television, cleaverness is a rarity now a days. I can see how someone could tire on something like this and would like something new in general but as for me I have strong interest in comedy like that. It's like a Marx Brothers sort of thing, but instead of 3 or 4 Marx Brothers (not including Gummo which was a Marx Brother who only did stage and not film, plus also being the running gag of The Muppets Go To The Movies Special lol). The first two were very slapstick and just full of puns and dialog gags through out. Even wacky little scenes like Gonzo watching TV in his cage when him, Kermit and Fozzie where on the plane to London.
Muppets Take Manhattan is good but it seems more tame then the other two. Same with Christmas Carol. Treasure Island I feel brought a lot of that humor back like the roll call scene "Ugly face baby eating O'brain, the female with the low voice. And Tom, Old Tom, Dead Tom." "Dead Tom already dead, that's why he's called Dead Tom." lol And the whole thing with Fozzie and Mr. Bimbo the little man in his finger. Goofy things like that, I liked. Also when Gonzo throws starfish ninja stars at Le Roach. The French Chef from The Jim Henson Hour and The Animal Show (what a cross over huh?). But to me it seems like things have tone down through the years and it's not as wild and zany as I'd like The Muppets to be like they were way back when.
But again, it's my opinion and mine alone.

 

[MrBloogarFoobly]

The biggest problem with The Muppets as they are today is that they've lost their multi-dimensionality in favor of cartoon simplicity.

Dr. Tooth mentioned above, for example, that Miss Piggy's "karate chop" schtick should be used sparingly. Now, in every television appearance, she's hitting somebody (usually Kermit.) Which brings me to Kermit: once a complex character, capable of zen-like meditation in one moment, anger in the next, and the ability to trade barbs with the other characters instead of just passively waiting to be hit by Miss Piggy. Kermit isn't much of a doer anymore; Walter is the catalyst for "The Muppets," Kermit just goes from location to location to make inspirational speeches.

These are just my gripes with "The Muppets." On the whole, I think it was a nice return to the big screen, and a great family film in a time where everything has to have a cynical edge for it to make any money. I'm not "Hatin'" on The Muppets. Disney rescuing them is the best thing to happen to them since the 90s.

I have high hopes for the next film. It won't be Jim Henson era Muppets because it can't be. That's just a fact. I'd rather they stuck around in the public eye as a respectable shadow of what they were rather than fade completely.

 

[mupcollector1]

I totally agree, they don't seem very third dimensional character wise. That is true. I remember Frank described Miss Piggy in great detail of who she was mainly being this ensecure pig who wants to be this beautiful model but she's overweight, she's not talented, Kermit doesn't love her, and she's a pig and with all that inner pain in her she hides it with her over assertiveness. That description I was mind blown, amazing and it's true. Like nwhen The Muppets where o The Merv Griffin Show in 1984 I think. Miss Piggy reveled that she had to do bacon aids just for the money. lol I heard that Kermit and Miss Piggy are getting married in this new film and I disagree with how now a days Kermit and Miss Piggy are a couple. I know there's fans who feel that the evolution is necessary but as for me, I love the gossip of Miss Piggy saying one thing and Kermit saying another. I heard something about how Jim and Frank liked the idea of messing around with the Hollywood Gossip using Kermit and Miss Piggy around the time of The Muppets Take Manhattan. I miss that, that was really funny. One of the last times Jim performed Kermit before he passed was when he was promoting The Muppets Go To Disney World in early May. Kermit and Miss Piggy are on The Today Show and the whole time Miss Piggy was shouting at Kermit "This is working out! We need to see other people!" and it's like she's faking a relationship fight on air and Kermit is trying to focus on the special then Miss Piggy gets too into it to the point where she believes the relationship thing is true and she goes crazy running off set and screaming in the background. lol I loved it when they were fighting.

What amazes me is that they seem so real, the personalities are so human. You know. This is my kind of Muppets.

But in my opinion, I feel that Disney is trying to make Kermit and Miss Piggy the next Mickey and Minnie couple. And I disagree strongly with that. The Muppets weren't meant to be cute, they were irreverent and anarchic.


Basically put it, I agree with Frank.

 

[Drtooth]

The biggest problem with The Muppets as they are today is that they've lost their multi-dimensionality in favor of cartoon simplicity.

Dr. Tooth mentioned above, for example, that Miss Piggy's "karate chop" schtick should be used sparingly.

That's something that has become too Flanderized and even the fans say enough is enough. Most fans actually like the Kermit and Piggy relationship to be sweet over something that they did up until season 5 of The Muppet Show. In the movies (with 2 very big obvious exceptions), their relationship has depth. I think, if nothing else, The Muppets respected that fact and gave the relationship an adult, grown up realism. Not the lame talk show appearances that always are goaded into Kermit saying nasty things about Piggy. That's the aspect outsider causal fans want to see, but it died after the show ended.

Now, in every television appearance, she's hitting somebody (usually Kermit.) Which brings me to Kermit: once a complex character, capable of zen-like meditation in one moment, anger in the next, and the ability to trade barbs with the other characters instead of just passively waiting to be hit by Miss Piggy. Kermit isn't much of a doer anymore; Walter is the catalyst for "The Muppets," Kermit just goes from location to location to make inspirational speeches.

The thing is, Kermit was kinda like that for the longest time when they were still figuring out what to do with the character after Jim. MCC, now rationally there's no way to put that in the film, especially since his character was the kindly, overly thankful doormat (Bob Cratchet usually is). MTI had a slight hint of it, but he was demoted to such a background character that he only got to express that during a small portion of the film. MFS, again, he's just...just there. He really doesn't do anything (but then again, it's Gonzo's movie). He did also have slight bursts of that on Muppets Tonight, but again, demoted to background character and all the new characters took the spotlight. it wasn't until VMX we got Kermit back. Outbursts, yelling at everyone, that frantic breakdown that lead to the It's a Wonderful Life pastiche... that was more Kermit than we've seen in years.

As for the movie, it's the tone. The film was about how even the most optimistic of us lose confidence. Happy go Lucky Kermit or even a slightly aggressive Kermit wouldn't have sold the story. And there is the level of depth that the gang breaking up was his fault (which would have been made more obvious if they left a couple scenes in, the breakup with Piggy is only mentioned in the novelization). But they chose the smartest story they could to relaunch the brand. A get the band back together plot. And it was kinda cumbersome, but face it... another "classic retelling" wasn't going to excite anyone. The next film will be better freed from that burden.

 

[Duke Remington]

I fully agree with DrTooth and strongly disagree with Mupcollector1.

Even though things haven't been totally perfect for the Muppets under Disney, it has been pretty darn close.

It still pains me to know that there are some people out there who are still blind to the fact that the Muppets have been doing great under Disney's ownership than they ever did at the post-Henson Jim Henson Company.

Also, the Muppets still have it. They still have their original complexities, still display their classic anarchaic antics, etc. and have slowly been getting them back ever since Disney got them. The Muppets had a much harder time trying to be themselves at Henson, if you know what I mean.

And with all due respect to Frank Oz, he is not the end-all be-all of the Muppets! He has cut his ties with them anyway.

Overall, the Muppets have been living happily ever after at Disney and we should be eternally grateful to them for giving our fuzzy friends a chance and for seeing the potential that they've always had and still have. Any other company would've treated them like garbage and locked them away forever, which we never want!

A marriage made in heaven is a marriage made in heaven and there's been no better time to be a Muppet fan.

 

[mupcollector1]

Well again, we all have our opinions about all this and I respect them all even if I disagree. We're all Muppet fans for several different reasons. So agree to disagree. But to put what Disney's doing in a positive opinion. Yes, I am pleased that The Muppets are being seen more then they have been for awhile. That is true. But it's not the same to me. Disagree if you want but it's my opinion and mine alone and that's all I can say.