The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

There's a wide spectrum of interpretation as far as the Bible is concerned. What is strict truth, what is supporting antiquated societal norms and what is allegory?

Is slavery okay? What about multiple wives? Was there really a specific change in the kosher laws? Jesus didn't mention gay people once, so does that change things? Did a snake actually talk? Is it okay to murder a witch or Wiccan? Was there an actual flood with an ark that carried pairs of every animal on earth? How can one survive being swallowed by a whale?

One thing is for certain! Until a higher power hops down off a cloud and tells us personally – nobody really knows for sure. There are conflicting views on all of it and scripture and science to support a variety of claims. I’m sure the people of faith in this thread have different views from one another too. Not all Christians are the same. That gets forgotten and is one of the reasons of this thread, I think.

Everyone has a different perspective on it that reflects their chosen faith. That’s how it should be, but nobody should have to live by the rules of another person’s faith.

I don’t vote on what church a person attends and I don’t think anyone has the right to vote on the dreamy guy I’ll marry one day or if we can adopt one of the many kids in the world who need homes. That part is very close to me being that I’m a child of adoption myself.

 

[Bannanasketch]

As a Catholic, just want to say that yes there is a lot of emphasis on ritual that I myself disagree with at times. But it should also be pointed out that Catholicism has the concept of Tradition (capital "T") which says our understanding of God's word should evolve over time and not solely rely on the Bible. That's why we don't have, say, polygamy. We have made the leap as a culture that that practice was wrong, even though revered Biblical figures took part in it.

That's an interesting thought. My belief and my church's belief is to rely soly on the bible and what it says. If the bible does not say anything about a certain tradition being done, we dont do it. Saints, for example, is something else I disagree with. The bible says that all believers are saints. Even though, I disagree with the catholic church on many things, I still respect it. We all still have the same beliefs just not the same traditions.

There's a wide spectrum of interpretation as far as the Bible is concerned. What is strict truth, what is supporting antiquated societal norms and what is allegory?

Is slavery okay? What about multiple wives? Was there really a specific change in the kosher laws? Jesus didn't mention gay people once, so does that change things? Did a snake actually talk? Is it okay to murder a witch or Wiccan? Was there an actual flood with an ark that carried pairs of every animal on earth? How can one survive being swallowed by a whale?

A lot of the bible can be literal and symbolic. Yes, times have changed but the words of the bible still apply today. Yes, I believe that Satan actually took he form of a snake to decieve Adam and Eve. Yes, I believe that there actually was an ark and a massive flood. There is actually scientific evidince of the flood. And Jonah, well, nothing is impossible with God.

One thing is for certain! Until a higher power hops down off a cloud and tells us personally – nobody really knows for sure. There are conflicting views on all of it and scripture and science to support a variety of claims. I’m sure the people of faith in this thread have different views from one another too. Not all Christians are the same. That gets forgotten and is one of the reasons of this thread, I think.

Everyone has a different perspective on it that reflects their chosen faith. That’s how it should be, but nobody should have to live by the rules of another person’s faith.

I disagree. You can know for sure but only when you accept him and have the holy spirit dwell within you. And when that higher power comes down, it will be too late for those who didnt choose and rejected him. But it also says that very knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord. I'm sure everybody will know for sure then. You have a chance now on earth, to take a leap of faith and have a relationship with Christ. He died for the sins of all but many reject that gift and are still held captive by their sins. I think that while everybody lives by their own faith, there is only one true faith. They can continue to follow their way and find out in the end when it's too late or they can change. Jesus accepts all into his kingdom.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Saints, for example, is something else I disagree with. The bible says that all believers are saints. Even though, I disagree with the catholic church on many things, I still respect it. We all still have the same beliefs just not the same traditions.

Yeah I definitely understand. I don't think it's that we don't believe everyone's a saint. I think it's just part of the culture and history of the Church to have central figures that we can identify with and be inspired by.

A lot of the bible can be literal and symbolic. Yes, times have changed but the words of the bible still apply today.

I agree, but probably in a slightly different way. I don't think it's out of the question that God could have caused evolution to happen. That doesn't mean I don't respect the Genesis story. For me it's not so much whether or not it's true, but more the meaning it's supposed to convey. That pride and presumption can be our downfall, I think that's part of the lesson God is trying to teach with Genesis and definitely applies to us all. ; )

But in the end I guess debating over beliefs isn't really the point. As we have all been saying here, making the effort to love the people we share this life with (even the annoying ones) is why we were put here. : )

...But yes, there IS scientific evidence for the flood. ; )

 

[frogboy4]

It still a matter of perspective

I disagree. You can know for sure but only when you accept him and have the holy spirit dwell within you. And when that higher power comes down, it will be too late for those who didnt choose and rejected him. But it also says that very knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord. I'm sure everybody will know for sure then. You have a chance now on earth, to take a leap of faith and have a relationship with Christ.

And there's the rub. Your faith in something unseen gives you strength to believe in it and I completely understand that, but there's a difference between the reassurance of spiritual comfort (usually through the Holy Spirit for Christians) and knowing for certain with proof. That is the very essence of faith - to believe without knowing. There's something very noble in that. Everyone has faith in something different and it is their right to do so without the imposition or condescension of others. Your chosen belief in a particular higher power is different than others and everyone should enjoy mutual respect no matter what you believe. Sharing is fantastic, but imposing one's views on others and requiring them to love by them is not. I'm just saying that we should all be able to get along without being bullied and that's what this thread is about.

A lot of the bible can be literal and symbolic. Yes, times have changed but the words of the bible still apply today. Yes, I believe that Satan actually took he form of a snake to decieve Adam and Eve. Yes, I believe that there actually was an ark and a massive flood. There is actually scientific evidince of the flood. And Jonah, well, nothing is impossible with God.

And again, there's the rub. It is easier for some to believe in the possibilities that these rather amazing things happened thousands of years ago without anything concrete, but many of these same folk won't give credibility to mounting scientific data to link gays to genetics. The jury's still out on exactly how that works and why, but there is far more evidence on that than virgin births, necromancy or demonic snakes. The fact is, I was raised hearing that all my life and that's the only reason it has any resonance to me. To be clear - it is not my intention to challenge that belief or poke fun. I just think that religious folk who believe those amazing things should be able to understand how many people just can't abandon their common sense so easily or have such a hard time allowing others their beliefs. Again, it's not all Christians that do that.

My intention is always to achieve mutual respect and understanding. The sad fact is, there are *some* Christians in this country who feel that their view should be paramount and that all Americans should fall in line or surrender a portion of their civil rights. There are *some* Atheists who think that Christianity should be pushed out of the public light and hidden away for only those who want to seek it out. I say both of those ideas are just as toxic as they are equally wrong. I just don’t see why there are some on either side who feel the need for ideological supremacy.

____

Personally, I don't believe the afterlife is reserved for a singular walk of faith yet I understand and respect that not everybody feels that way. Bullying is never okay with me no matter if it takes place on the schoolyard or the ballot box.

 

[Bannanasketch]

And there's the rub. Your faith in something unseen gives you strength to believe in it and I completely understand that, but there's a difference between the reassurance of spiritual comfort (usually through the Holy Spirit for Christians) and knowing for certain with proof. That is the very essence of faith - to believe without knowing. There's something very noble in that. Everyone has faith in something different and it is their right to do so without the imposition or condescension of others. Your chosen belief in a particular higher power is different than others and everyone should enjoy mutual respect no matter what you believe. Sharing is fantastic, but imposing one's views on others and requiring them to love by them is not. I'm just saying that we should all be able to get along without being bullied and that's what this thread is about.

See, you don't fully understand. When the holy spirit is in you, you know. God impresses on the hearts of believers what to do and what is right and wrong. I have felt his spirit on me many times. So, I know FOR SURE that it is true. You can say I'm wrong and you can disagree with me but I don't care. I know what I belive and I know what I trust in. Yes, there is faith involved. That is true. I belive in God even though i don't see him but the holy spirit dwellswithin me and I am sure.

And again, there's the rub. It is easier for some to believe in the possibilities that these rather amazing things happened thousands of years ago without anything concrete, but many of these same folk won't give credibility to mounting scientific data to link gays to genetics. The jury's still out on exactly how that works and why, but there is far more evidence on that than virgin births, necromancy or demonic snakes. The fact is, I was raised hearing that all my life and that's the only reason it has any resonance to me. To be clear - it is not my intention to challenge that belief or poke fun. I just think that religious folk who believe those amazing things should be able to understand how many people just can't abandon their common sense so easily or have such a hard time allowing others their beliefs. Again, it's not all Christians that do that.

If you don't believe it, then don't. I have faith that that all happened and I'm not going to stop believing it.

My intention is always to achieve mutual respect and understanding. The sad fact is, there are *some* Christians in this country who feel that their view should be paramount and that all Americans should fall in line or surrender a portion of their civil rights. There are *some* Atheists who think that Christianity should be pushed out of the public light and hidden away for only those who want to seek it out. I say both of those ideas are just as toxic as they are equally wrong. I just don’t see why there are some on either side who feel the need for ideological supremacy.

I agree with you on that point. I don't think that Christianity shouldbe the only view that all Americans should follow. That's against free will. I also don't think athiests should push out Christianity completely. What I have a problem with is the issue o seperation of church and state. There is no such thing. Freed om of religion was only set up to keep the federal government from forming an official religion of the country.

You can say i'm wrong if you want but my beliefs are still clear. Whatever you think is fine but I've made my case clear.

 

[frogboy4]

See, you don't fully understand. When the holy spirit is in you, you know... I believe in God even though i don't see him but the holy spirit dwells within me and I am sure.

If you don't believe it, then don't. I have faith that that all happened and I'm not going to stop believing it.

I'm certainly not asking you to stop believing any of it, of course. It's just my intention to bring about a mutual understanding and respect for the flip-side of your chosen belief. Not to contradict it.

I pretty much agree with what you're saying. Just clearing up the semantics between personally believing something in your heart to be true and knowing something with hard factual evidence to back it up. That's faith. And it understandably takes a great leap of faith to believe many of the items I cited.

I agree with you on that point. I don't think that Christianity should be the only view that all Americans should follow. That's against free will.

I completely agree with you there.

I also don't think Atheists should push out Christianity completely. What I have a problem with is the issue o separation of church and state. There is no such thing. Freedom of religion was only set up to keep the federal government from forming an official religion of the country.

You can say i'm wrong if you want but my beliefs are still clear. Whatever you think is fine but I've made my case clear.

I will respectfully agree to disagree with you there. There's the stalemate. I don't think any person's spiritual beliefs should keep me from marrying the person I love or serving this country. And at least the second half of that is now a reality.

 

[bingboingcutie]

See, you don't fully understand. When the holy spirit is in you, you know. God impresses on the hearts of believers what to do and what is right and wrong. I have felt his spirit on me many times. So, I know FOR SURE that it is true. You can say I'm wrong and you can disagree with me but I don't care. I know what I belive and I know what I trust in. Yes, there is faith involved. That is true. I belive in God even though i don't see him but the holy spirit dwellswithin me and I am sure.



If you don't believe it, then don't. I have faith that that all happened and I'm not going to stop believing it.

I totally agree with you! I don't think anyone should be FORCED to be a Christian, but I think it is the right message to believe, and anyone would really like it! I believe.

 

[Fraggline]

Love your messages, bingboingcutie and Bananasketch!
All I can say is, when I'm feeling really frustrated and down, I can almost see this kind face smiling at me and comforting me --- the face of Jesus. He never yells at me, but He coaxes me to do the things that I know I should.
I understand if people disagree with my beliefs, but He's brought me a lot of happiness in my life.
Hope I don't offend anybody here.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Love your messages, bingboingcutie and Bananasketch!
All I can say is, when I'm feeling really frustrated and down, I can almost see this kind face smiling at me and comforting me --- the face of Jesus. He never yells at me, but He coaxes me to do the things that I know I should.
I understand if people disagree with my beliefs, but He's brought me a lot of happiness in my life.

Amen to Fraggline, bingboingcutie and Bananasketch.
That is unshakeable- the change Jesus makes in individual lives. People can believe whatever they want to and that's fine- no one should be forced to believe in anything. But in order to obey the command of Jesus, I want to share with others what He's done for me and how He's changed my life and what He said- that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He died on the cross and rose again to pay for our sins and provide salvation for all to whosoever will believe on Him and ask Him for forgiveness and follow Him. He loves everyone and has offered that to everyone. It's what Christmas is all about- the fulfillment of God's promise to send salvation to us through the Messiah- and of course, Christmas is only complete with Easter.
People can deny this or disagree with it and that's fine- God never forces Himself on anyone. I don't want to force it on anyone either- everyone in America (and this should be the case worldwide, but it sadly isn't) should be free to believe exactly as they choose. But Christ makes it clear that there is no other way to Heaven but Him and that if people reject Him, then they will cast away from His presence eternally. That's not a message everyone wants to hear but it's the one God commanded Christians to share.
And that's the Gospel message Christians should be sharing as we speak the truth in love, as The Bible says. Because as 1 Corinthians 13:1 says- we can speak with the tongues of men and have all sorts of knowledge but if we don't have love- we're just a sounding gong or clanging cymbal. Love is always at the forefront. And love came down at Christmas. Glory to God in the highest and on earth, peace- good will to men on whom His favor rests.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Thanks bingboingcutie and fraggline and welcome to Muppet Central. And thanks again, gonzoleaper. Many won't believe our message but it's still important to get the word out there. Remember, we wouldn't have CHRISTmas without a king being born in a stable over 2 thousand years ago. God bless you guys.