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The Muppets Bechdel Test (re. Female roles)

Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by Beauregard, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    There's some debate at the moment enough whether or not The Muppets passes the Bechdel test which states that to pass the test a movie must:

    1. Have at least two (named) women in it
    2. Who talk to each other
    3. About something besides a man
    Some are saying that it passes only test 1, by having Amy, Miss Piggy, Janice, Camilla and Wanda.

    But others are saying it passes 1 and 2, by having Miss Piggy talk to Miss Poogy (assuming Poogy is female)

    There is some debate whether Piggy and Poogy's fight/talk is technically about a man, though, since she mostly came back for Kermit (although she claims to have come back for the others.)


    So, what do you think? And, do the other Muppet Movies pass this test?
  2. Hubert

    Hubert Well-Known Member

    Hmm...here's my breakdown of each Muppet movie, and what I think:

    The Muppet Movie
    1. There are more than two
    2. I don't think any of Miss Piggy, Janice, Camilla, etc. talked to each other during the movie actually...

    The Great Muppet Caper
    1. There are more than two
    2. Lady Holliday and Miss Piggy converse
    3. It isn't about a man at all, so I guess GMC passes

    The Muppets Take Manhattan
    1. There are more than two
    2. Jenny and Miss Piggy converse
    3. It is about the show, not a man, so I guess TMTM also passes

    The Muppet Christmas Carol
    1. There are more than two
    2. Betina, Belinda, and Miss Piggy, do talk to each other, but it isn't a real conversation, so does that count?
    3. If it does count, it wasn't about a man

    Muppet Treasure Island
    1. There are more than two
    2. Considering that Miss Piggy was the only real main female character, I don't think that two females conversed

    Muppets From Space
    1. There are more than two
    2. Miss Piggy talks with the reporter briefly, so if that counts, then two do converse
    3. If it does count, it wasn't about a man

    The Muppets' Wizard of Oz
    1. There are more than two
    2. Dorothy talks to Miss Piggy as a witch
    3. It wasn't about a man, so I guess MWOO passes

    The Muppets
    1. There are more than two
    2. Miss Piggy talks to Miss Poogy, who I think is a female
    3. It was technically about a man, so really, I don't think that this one counts.
  3. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    Thanks! I knew someone with a greater knowledge would compile a good list! I'm pretty sure that Muppets From Space does count, since it was a discussion about a job and the reporter is named...although I forget what. Shelly?

    In Very Merry Muppet Christmas, Miss Piggy kinda talks to Miss Bitterman when they have their fight, and it isn't man related. But does that count as a conversation?
  4. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    Fraggle Rock passes with flying colors, as Red and Mokey talk all the time, and is it ever about men?

    I love to hear references to this litmus test. I've been a fan of D2Wo4 ever since the early strips, and I have a set of the books.
  5. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    How come Fraggle Rock is so much better at organic female roles (ones played by females no less) than all the other Muppet stuff put together? And does The Muppet Show really need that? Those are the questions to think about.
  6. Hubert

    Hubert Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah. Shelly Snipes. I couldn't remember the name.

    I would say IAVMMCM would count, as it is a pretty full out fleshed argument, so I would classify that as a conversation.
  7. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    I can't believe there's any doubt that Miss Poogy is female. Though I recall before the movie came out some fans seemed to speculate that Miss Poogy was a man in drag, and I think Matt Vogel hinted at that in a pre-The Muppets interview, but the movie doesn't seem to show any such indication that she's a man.

    After all, when Miss Poogy is first shown as Miss Piggy's replacement, Fozzie says "She's sort of like Miss Piggy". He knew her better than the rest, so he would know her gender (though I feel that line should have gone to one of the others, someone who hadn't met her).
  8. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    I always kind of laugh in MTM when Piggy lightly admonishes Janice after her latest naked story joke. Not because of the naked joke but because I always think, "Wow, I wasn't sure Piggy even knew Janice!" Lol

    Not that I think they should have necessarily had more scenes together. Some characters don't have chemistry and it wouldn't work. Saying that two female characters have to talk to each other is one of those broad stroke quota things rather than actual quality writing.
  9. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    I guess you didn't see that very rare, very occasional sketch they sometimes did from time to time on the Muppet Show, commonly known as Vet's Hospital?
    CensoredAlso and Hubert like this.
  10. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Lol, oh I know I was thinking more in the movieverse. Besides to me Vet's Hospital is more like a sketch than character interaction if that makes sense.
  11. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    Haha. I was joking also, but you know what, I don't think I've ever seen Miss Piggy more relaxed on having more genuine FUN than when she was interacting with Rowlf and Janice in those sketches. She's like a giddy kid, just laughing about the place.

    Its a shame that for the rest of her acting career she's stuck with boys, around whom she seems to have to act differently.
  12. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Yeah Piggy always seem to let loose with the silly in Vet's Hospital. She's always wanting to be a glamor girl but I think she really missed her true calling as a comedian, lol.
  13. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    Agreed! She also let loose the silly when she was with Joan, so...does that tell you something?
  14. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Are you talking about IAVMMC?
  15. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    No, no, I mean Rivers. In MTM with the "Powderapuff'a'you!"
    CensoredAlso likes this.
  16. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    Ohhh right, duh I'm sorry I'm slow today, lol. And ashamed because that's my favorite of the movies, lol.

    "Pigs don't have eyebrows!"

    "Well this pig is going to!"
  17. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    In the drag community, it's considered proper to refer to someone's drag persona as the gender they're assuming rather than their physical gender. Thus, RuPaul and Divine would be 'she', not 'he'.

    Just sayin'.
    Pig's Laundry and Beauregard like this.
  18. Hubert

    Hubert Well-Known Member

    Or maybe even Fozzie had no idea...
  19. Pig's Laundry

    Pig's Laundry Well-Known Member

    I know this is an old thread, but I just had a random thought. For some reason I think a lot when I should be going to bed. But, the Bechdel test. I'm all for strong female characters, I wish we had more of them, but the Bechdel test is a very low standard for that, I think. Because, two female characters can talk to each other about something other than men but they can still be badly written sexist stereotypes.

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