1. Welcome to the Muppet Central Forum!
    You are viewing our forum as a guest. Join our free community to post topics and start private conversations. Please contact us if you need help with registration or your account login.

  2. Sesame Street Season 45
    Sesame Street's 45th season officially begins Monday September 15. After you see the new episodes, post here and let us know your thoughts.

  3. "Muppets Most Wanted" Fan Reactions
    After you see "Muppets Most Wanted", read fan reactions and let us know your thoughts on the Muppets eighth theatrical film.

Best & Worst of Season 4

Discussion in 'Fraggle Rock' started by Frogster, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. Frogster

    Frogster Active Member

    Hey gang, while most of us may not have the boxed set, I'm sure there's enough of us who've seen all 96 episodes to weigh in on what they thought of the last 24. Aside from the last three, some of the better episodes, for me, were Sidebottom Blues, Tune For Two, Red's Blue Dragon, Brush With Jealousy, Gone But Not Forgotten, Wonder Mountain, Wembley's Flight, River of Life, Junior Faces The Music, and Ring Around The Rock.

    There's not many episodes that I don't enjoy, but the only ones that stick out in my mind that weren't faves are Trial Of Cotterpin Doozer (Feeny and Large Marvin are hilarious, but sometimes the Doozers lack the ability to keep the story interesting), The Voice Inside (Kinda boring and campy), Riddle of Rhyming Rock (Gobo's already had an episode like this, it's called Gobo's School For Explorers) and Mokey Then & Now (kinda feel bad for Mokey getting an episode like this for her last; she should have also gotten Riddle of Rhyming Rock, since she's a poet anyways). What about you guys?

    Also, for those of us who don't have the boxed set, how about those of you who do have it mention a bit about what was cool to you that was mentioned in the extras?
  2. DLGabriel

    DLGabriel Active Member

    I actually really loved all of Season 4. If I had to pick one episode I didn't love quite as much as the others it would be The Trial Of Cotterpin Doozer. Like you said, sometimes the more Doozer heavy episodes have a bit of trouble maintaining the flow of the other shows. It wasn't bad by any means as in my opinion, Fraggle Rock never actually put out a bad episode. Just not quite on par with most the others.

    And while I loved the episode, I agree that The Riddle Of Rhyming Rock might have been a bit more effective with Mokey as the central character than Gobo.

    As far as extras in the box set go...

    I really enjoyed the exteneded piece with the Gorg actors. The wrap party was also really awesome, but I do kinda wish they would have included it all in-tact, rather than edited and pieced together, but that's really a very minor gripe. Karen Prell was particularly entertaining in it.

    The spot on the evolution of the Fraggle theme song was also wonderful. It was very interesting to hear some early, nixed versions (in snippets) of what could have been the theme.
  3. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I saw The Trial of Cotterpin Doozer in one of the smaller DVDs. I don't know, personally I thought the Doozers carried the story well, lol. I think we sometimes have trouble identifying with the Doozers because they're more into group functioning while we (like the Fraggles) are a more individualistic society. In fact I was always impressed at how well the FR writers got this across. :busy::excited:
  4. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    The doozers have a harder time emoting due to some of the constraints of their puppet size. There are some fantastic moments with them but everything is just so small with them that make it difficult to carry an entire episode. :busy:

    I do have the box set and have reviewed it on the other thread. I'm just glad to have the episodes. I haven't seen much of season four so I'm hopping right to that first. I remember talking with Karen Prell and feeling bad for not seeing so many of her favorite episodes. Now I have them all. Wooohahaha. I have missed Red. For me some of these episodes are new. That kinda makes me lucky now. :excited:

    I like any episode that explores new territory or even old territory in a new way. I like the scenery and story to move. It's the seemingly more stagnant episodes that cause my attention to wander. Some old timers around here know the one character that I don't particularly care for when the show focuses on them. I will never repeat or admit which one. I do admit my great affection for Boober. I always want to give him a hug. I'd de-germ first! :coy:
  5. Yva Minstrel

    Yva Minstrel New Member

    I guess I didn't like the Trial of Cotterpin Doozer very much because I have never been a big fan of Large Marvin. I always thought that if they were going to use a fraggle to interact with Cotterpin, that it would be Mokey, since the others all had episdoes with Cotterpin. Gobo has 'The Cavern of Lost Dreams', Red has 'Red's Club' and 'All Work and All Play', Boober has 'Boober and the Glob' and Wembley has 'A Tune for Two' (which is perhaps one of my favorite episodes from season 4). I just thought that an episode with Mokey and Cotterpin would have been nice, but maybe too 'obvious about fraggles not being just for playing.

    At any rate, I felt that that episode lacked something because Feeny and Large Marvin are too silly in it and I am not a fan of those two characters. Large Marvin also reminds me too much of my brother...in both name and stature.

    I loved the final episode, though, but never got to see 'Sidebottom Blues' as it is not on any of my DVDs.

    The other episode I didn't like so much was 'Red's Blue Dragon'. It was a cute idea, but Red already had an episode with a Sea Monster and no one believing her, so this was one of those 'I've already seen this plot' things.

    Otherwise the season was quite good. I liked where it went.
  6. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    I actually sort of like Trial of Cotterpin Doozer..Not for the Doozers (because I am not a doozer fan, at all really) but for the focus on Feeny and Large Marvin...I don't see them as silly at all, in fact I would say they hold up the name of somewhat learning disablied fraggles very well in a sweet way...
    And I am a big fan of Red's Blue Dragon, I think that Red has a habit of bumping into magical things and that is cool in itself, plus seeing more of the worlds around fraggle rock is always good...
    Really, there is no episode I truly dislike :).
    I don't really see stories being sort of kind of like such and such story as being a draw back since the characters sort of by nature get themselves in the same sort of messes just by being themselves :)

    I think Mokey Then & Now was a great last episode for Mokey really...After all, what artist wouldn't want to know that deep down the motto of their whole culture in some way made/effected by them? I know I would:D!
  7. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I like Feeny and Large Marvin in that episode; sometimes shows need a shake up where lesser characters take the reigns for a day. And their journey from being kind of slow to being loyally dedicated to helping Cotterpin was very sweet. :)

    I've been desperately trying to avoid watching Gone, But Not Forgotten until I get the DVD, hopefully I'll make it, lol.
  8. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah... I really do love that one myself, just for those 2. I have it on the Doin' things Doozers Do DVD...

    I just love how ridiculously ceremonious the Doozers come off as in that one. I mean, would you want to go to court, about to be banished or punished severely and have them sing a rousing upbeat tune just before they sentence you? The fact that the only time they really seem to cut loose is when they uphold how rigid they are.
  9. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Oh yes, say what you will but the Doozers always have very cool songs (or is that Rev? ;) ).

    "Yes we do, yes we do!" :busy:

    And you're right, they're at their most passionate when talking about how strict and solid their society is.
  10. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Well, I don't have the boxset. However...

    The Riddle of Rhyming Rock was probably the most forgettable. I'd tell you why,

    ...

    but I forgot. ;)

    Red's Blue Dragon, while covering the same basic territory as Sea Monster, added some fleshing out to a fairy tale/legend previously mentioned in A Cave of One's Own AND gave Red some empathy and respect for Matt. Readers of my fics know I LOVE expounding upon Fraggle legends.

    Boober Gorg is interesting just because although Sidebottom isn't mentioned in it, I can't help but feel he took over when Boober got bonked.

    Sidebottom Blues was a nice progression for Sidebottom. We go from an arrogant playful jerk who's willing to freeze his new Fraggle friends in their dreams to a guy who is really upset that Wembley is in danger.

    Ring Around the Rock touched me. Ma never really seemed to get her own episode much. I had always suspected she felt lonely, but this ep really drove it home.
    EDIT: I'm an idiot ... I'm thinking of Mirror, Mirror. But Ring really DID touch me dearly. I would have loved to attend that remarriage ceremony.

    Despite my mild dislike of Trial of Cotterpin Doozer, I actually did like Large Marvin and Feeny in it. I like when underdogs can be heroes for a day.

    Mokey Then & Now: fanfic fodder for me :)

    I cheered when the Fraggles let Cotterpin sing in Tune for Two. Stick it to the man, er, Fraggle, Cotterpin!

    River of Life was great. Pa learns of Silly Creatures and threatens to attack them (I'd LOVE to watch THAT). Boober has some really great scenes. This, to me, is Boober's The Day the Music Died.

    Brush with Jealousy I actually didn't care for that much. Seemed like a replay of at least Mokey's Funeral, where she gets upset that others aren't basically kissing her tail. Selfish twit.... (j/k)

    Junior Faces the Music WOULD have been superb, had the writers not done a HUGE 180 on the message of that ENTIRE episode in The Gorg Who Would Be King. This episode, as well as the entire series, made The Gorg Who Would Be King seem like Obi Wan's little pep talk on Mustafar where he's been all "Jedi=Good, Sith=Bad" until he faces Anakin, and then it's all "Absolutes are bad". Huh?
  11. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    Mokey Then & Now is so much with its story it could have made FR get another season or two with hurting anything, the same with Red's Blue Dragon IMHO. If they had not had everything planned to the letter there could have been many spin offs to...*goes back to planning Fraggle Babies*

    Oh, and the whole The Gorg Who Would Be King thingie..well that goes into the great crown debate IMHO. Which I'm going to be doing my version of in my FR the movie sequel to Midnight Place idea...Needless to say I am very pro-gorgish culture, one of those things being their kings..I think it is important :). In fact, I would almost say it is more important than doozers....

    You know, I just thought of something...in The Gorg Who Would Be King, when they are telling Jr. all that...Cantus isn't there is h....? *runs off to fanfic writing notebook like her pants are on fire*
  12. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    The whole king issue is just based on what your own personal opinion is of a monarchy. I have to sort of agree with how they chose to end it on the show. Whether a king is cruel or generous, he is still a ruler. He still rules over other human beings for no other reason than that he happens to be king. And the point of the episode is that people should be free (or at least elect their own leaders who can be voted out in a democracy hehe).

    And you could argue Cantus made sure Junior became king just so he would be the one to end the monarchy (Heaven knows Pa wouldn't have!).
  13. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    Meh, Cantus is the sort I think who would have said something to that effect, even in 'code' if he had felt it was that important IMHO...
    I still say that their 'monarchy' was not hurting anything, least of all the fraggles or themselves :p. Maybe how Pa was using his power was bad but I can't really blame that on his title of King exactly, I think it was just...him :p
    Oh well, I will save my ideas for the story. It has pretty much written itself now in my notebooks about this ;).
  14. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    "Some slavery feels like freedom." ;)

    But I would be interested in seeing your story. :)
  15. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    I still say nothing they did really has the feeling all at of a slavery like system, just more of a bad person doing bad things..I really think he would have done those things anyway :(. But I'm stubborn like that ;)..After all, for all our 'freedom' a voting system does not give us all the say so we think we have ether once someone is there in a high office...
    But then I am very pro-tradition and other olden days things...and no that doesn't mean slavery (which, when you think about it, we still have, it's called office jobs -.-)
  16. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Oh I agree that Pa would probably be bad anyway. But a lot of it was based in the idea that he was better than the Fraggles simply because he was "born" king and therefore inherently better than everyone else. And even with a nice king, there is still the implication that he is somehow better than everyone else.

    And I agree our system of democracy is far from perfect. Winston Churchhill said something to the effect that democracy is a horrible system, but it's better than every other system out there.

    I'm quite traditional myself in many ways so I do understand. There are some things from the past I wish we hadn't lost. But on the other hand, we also made a lot of progress since the past that I wouldn't want to lose. :)
  17. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    I don't think it has to be one or the other :). I really think old systems can live on and not hurt anything...
  18. RedPiggy

    RedPiggy Well-Known Member

    Considering they were really only rulers over themselves, "kingship" didn't seem to affect much. I know where the writers were going with that, but the moral doesn't (to me, at least) match the attitude in the entire rest of the show. Pa wasn't bad because he was king, he was just a guy who put tradition over reality ... though he COULD be generous when he had the choice. One reason in my fics I try to paint a sympathetic picture of him is that he really does have integrity. Had his Gorgish tradition not included being an arrogant jerk to others, he would have been different. He was raised to believe it, and I have been trying to learn to cut guys like that some slack. Pa wasn't TRYING to be bad, like, say, Jareth ... Pa was just misinformed about what was right. And I think he dissed Junior so much because he realized Junior had figured out some things better than him, but he didn't want to admit it because it would make his life a lie. It explains why there are people now who can't handle the world moving on through the 21st century. They were taught what was "right" and they're afraid of being told they lived a lie.

    And I'll concede it's possible that Cantus and Marjory wanted Junior to be king just so he could ditch the crown ... but to me it wasn't that evident.

    I had a dream the other night about getting proposed to by an emperor ... and I refused ... but I didn't have a thing against HIM being emperor. I just didn't want to be a ruler (which is weird, since I joke all the time that I want to run the world ... mwahahaha).
  19. Frogster

    Frogster Active Member

    These are some excellent points, guys. Starting with Trial of Cotterpin... I love Large Marvin and Feeny, but the whole 'rescuing Cotterpin from the baby cackler' thing was sorta silly and fake. And yeah, it's difficult for Doozers to carry a story, basically because of the lack of range of motions they can have; not only that, but, IMHO save for the Architect and Cotterpin, they all pretty much act and look exactly alike. I know what you guys might be thinking... "Well, you Fraggles all look the same." BTW, speaking of Boober & The Glob, that lil moment where Cotterpin and Boober are saying that Doozers/Fraggles are the same... interesting way of mirroring what some people think of others in our culture, whether it be with race, gender, wealth, etc. It's moments like those where Fraggle Rock really resonates with its viewers.

    Secondly, Mokey. I agree, we've seen "Mokey's Funeral" already, and with that, along with a perfect blend of "Society of Poohbahs" and "Fraggle Wars" this episode pretty much looks like a rerun. Not only do I think she deserved "Rhyming Rock" but since she's dealt with Junior the most, she should have helped him realize what it means to be king in Junior's last centric episode. Plus, it'd be cool to see Mokey leading an upbeat song like "Boss Of Yourself". I will say that, aside from probably Wembley, Mokey was the one who's grown up the most. For me, it's like, in Season 1 she's this ditsy 16-year-old hippy, and when the series ends, not only does the puppet of Mokey look a lot better, but she behaves like a grown female Fraggle.

    Thirdly, Junior. I understand how some people may feel that it may seem pointless for Cantus to have Junior play the Kazoo if Junior just throws the crown into our world later on. But, as previously mentioned, maybe that's exactly what Marjorie and Cantus planned on all along. We've seen how Pa (as well as Ma to some degree) rule with little thought to how their actions could snowball and cause problems for other species, and even though Junior may not seem to be the best candidate on the surface, I think both of them knew that, underneath, he would care about other people who are in trouble. As we've seen on the show, their jobs were to bring the 'worlds' of the different species together. Also, as much as I wish we coulda had a Marjorie/ Cantus meeting scene, I'm pretty sure our entire world would have collapsed, destroying the physical integrity of space/time, so it's prolly best to leave well enough alone :smirk:

    Also, on "Space Frog Follies" I gotta say that it was somewhat of a clever plot for an episode. The writers could have easily made that a Gorg-themed episode, with Junior not wanting to release the Fraggles. Instead, I think they took a more interesting approach with Wembley and Uncle Matt having a pet frog to give to Gobo as a present. Just some food for thought.
  20. Redsonga

    Redsonga Active Member

    I dunno, I don't think Mokey really changed exactly, even at the start I won't really call her ditzy...I think by the end of the series she was just more sure of herself and showing the things that were already there all along...Of course I have my own ideas about why she was so soft spoken :).

    I really don't think Cantus planned that..it just seems too all or nothing (which he always seemed very against, just listen to how he talked, very liquid and give and take IMHO)...I mean why make a show about loving each other even though you may be different and then take away someones culture? I really don't buy it :(.
    But then, I hate when other parts of the world go into places that still have kings and then just say 'You're wrong!". If it is not some clearly awful issue like having slaves, and it does not hurt anyone, why not keep it?


Share This Page

Find out more about Jim Henson the Biography