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Best & Worst of Season 4

Discussion in 'Fraggle Rock' started by Frogster, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. heralde Well-Known Member

    The Fraggles don't want to be rulers because they don't want to be ruled, and they extend the same courtesy to others. In the "King" episode they are very eager to point out how they don't think anyone can force anyone to do anything. Even in Junior was a nice king, they wouldn't want one. And they shouldn't have to have one. Especially when, as Junior says, the universe manages to run pretty well by itself naturally. :)

    Well remember the Gorgs' system did end up coming with those trappings, with Pa creating and using a bomb. And Pa did intend to keep the Fraggles as slaves in one episode. I don't think we can say that was just because of one particular ruler, and not the system itself. It's like how Communism sounds good in theory, but has never been successfully achieved.
  2. Redsonga Active Member

    I think we can..I really think Pa was just from an older generation where rulers use to do those things. But like our slave system, or beheadings it fell out of favor (no one is saying it was ever a good thing to began with) and such when another generation (Jr.) came along.

    But...

    1) Truly not enforcing the idea of rulers is letting others be free to rule as they see fit and not forcing another cultures ideas on them when they are low and confused (like Jr. was).
    If you get down to brass tacks fraggles actually do have two bosses that are bosses simply because they were born or grew into their roles..The Trash Heap and the World's Oldest. No one voted them in and they are listened to without much question...You could say that everyone wants to, but who is to say a gorg king could not be loved in the same way? :\

    and

    2) Although the fraggles didn't want rulers Jr. never said that he thought of the fraggles as subjects exactly, and he would have let them be after making friends with them anyway, so I really don't see any harm..I just don't :)
  3. heralde Well-Known Member

    I'm not in favor of forcing beliefs on others of course. But just because some people may want something, doesn't mean it's good for them or others. ;)

    Junior was told his whole life that there would always be someone to boss him around and make him do things when he just wanted to garden and enjoy himself. He didn't know there were places in the world that let you do what you wanted. There are countries in the world today that would still love to find that out.

    And again, even a generous ruler is still a ruler. And that flies in the face of the idea that all people are equal.
  4. heralde Well-Known Member

    Well that is true, they do put the Trashheap in a higher position, you're absolutely right. :) On the other hand, it's very obvious the Trashheap is sort of special and higher than the other beings and deserves to be treated as such. The Gorgs are no more special than the Fraggles; they are regular species in the world, and don't need to be treated as better than them.

    The World's Oldest is a bit of an enigma. Sometimes they treat him as very important, but even then, it's because he's lived a long time and has experience. (Junior's quite old too of course, but clearly mentally a child). And then other times the Fraggles ridicule TWO for thinking he's so important.

    As some have said, there is much inconsistency. ;)
  5. Redsonga Active Member

    The same could be said of the fraggle idea that the only good ruler is none at all :\.
    The whole "hammer in the nail that sticks out that way everyone is equal' idea just doesn't appeal to me...I am all for peace but peace should not come at the cost of the only things a culture has to be proud of, to make them..them. However odd, silly, or backward it might seem IMHO...

    No one ever said he would be ruling the fraggles though, so again, what's the harm?
    I actually think they do need it:coy:... *goes back to writing her fanfic*

    I actually see all the episodes connecting very well, some are out of order, but they make sense to me :).
  6. heralde Well-Known Member

    You don't have to do anything to make sure everyone is equal. It is simply a fact. Despite what anyone tries to do. ;)

    I don't think that's the only thing the Gorgs had. They believe in taking oaths seriously and keeping written records of their history and clearly they appreciate music and nature.
  7. Redsonga Active Member

    And so if they are equal, they all have equal power to decide if they want a king, a queen, a minster, a wise woman, or a holy squash to began with to look up to as their ruler at whatever level they choose :).

    So they still can still write, sing, and look at things but their history books and everything around them related to how they write, sing and make promises only serves to remind them of how much faith they once had in their race and how now they will die off slowly with nothing to make them feel that they are special or have something to pass on simply by being them (if they had anyone to pass it to). What a future:cry:

    Even if we are equal deep down, we all want that extra something, that special-ness, even if we know it's only a fantasy. IMHO, to me, kingship was that to the gorgs...
    *doesn't really mind the idea of real kings and queens in the first place. and would like to meet one someday*
    *never realized how much of a gorg fan she was untill now*
    *wanders off*
  8. heralde Well-Known Member

    Yes they do. But they also have the right not to be oppressed or treated unequally (whether they care or not).

    There are people who would love those opportunities and are denied them. ;)

    I like the Gorgs a lot too. And I don't think they need to be better than another else in order to be special. Whether Junior is king or not, he is still who he is and very unique and special. We all have that extra special-ness that makes us stand out. And we have to respect that of everyone, not imply someone has it more than someone else.
  9. Redsonga Active Member

    But we're not talking about those people.
    This is simply limited to the world of FR, and in this case their kingdom was the center of their culture IMHO, and the loss of that is a true loss I think :(.

    But sometimes, I think they do..for all sorts of reasons. And if we like someone enough, what is the harm of supporting their ideas that they're better? Even liking being ruled? In a land were war/money/and slaves is pretty much a thing of the pass to boot?

    Golly, I don't know about you, but I would take being ruled over by a gorg and living in their world vs. having total freedom in ours :p.
    even we all our 'freedom' here it is still a money class system worst than having a king IMHO...

    I'd..have a strawberry field and pay my land tax in pies and play with fraggles *dreams* ^.^
  10. heralde Well-Known Member

    Fraggle Rock was created to be a mirror and inspiration to our world. They aren't separate to me. :)

    There's nothing wrong with supporting people. But saying one person is better than another is how wars and fighting get started.

    I don't think people living in the oppressed parts of our world would feel the same way. I don't think we understand how good we have it in our society. :)
  11. Redsonga Active Member

    I just mean that even though it is made to mirror our world not every case within the show can fairly be talked about with random real world backing. Like saying that because I feel that reading and singing alone might be an empty life for the gorgs I suddenly don't know how nice (those rights) are to have :\. It's..a bit unbalanced... me thinks... *gasp* Such and such part of the world had a bad leader, that means gorgs should not have any ether -.- Just too all or nothing IMHO :(....

    I think many of us do..But that does not make us greedy for thinking something is even better. Like the world of Fraggle Rock (which I think would have been fine even with a king) :).
  12. heralde Well-Known Member

    Ok, fair enough. :)

    Oh I'm not in favor of our money class system in our country either. It's a horrible hinderness on our freedom that is never talked about.

    But having a king doesn't mean that would go away. Royal families in other countries are rich and treated special for no reason other than their blood. And not every ruler wishes to spread the wealth to the common people. And even if some royal families do contribute to charity, why should they have more money? More to the point, why should the common people not have as much?

    In the old days of England and America, there was a system, not just based on money, but on birth and class. Even if you suddenly got money, you could never hope to be welcomed into the upper class or royalty. Because you simply weren't born that way. It might be nice for some people to be kings. But why should some people be forced to be the peasants?

    A movie version of the Cinderella story address the issue of class based on birth as opposed to money quite well:

    "Though you work your life away, where you work is where you'll stay."
  13. Redsonga Active Member

    Fraggle Rock though=no money. Or, actually, money but no real use for it even if you have it. Even Jr. did'nt seem to care for gold, and seemed like a nice guy, I would not mind his ruler..ship...
    Anyhow, I guess I mean, if money is things you can grow in their world, I go to a fraggle hole with a backpack full of seeds, a notebook full of pencils and drawing charcoal and a dream..A dream! *dives into hole and hits head on drainpipe*
    OWIE ;.;

    Edit: Golly, if that isn't a self insert fanfic waiting to happen :confused:

    "But if where you are is where you want to be, it's okay, let's have tea.."
    Sorry..I couldn't help myself :3
  14. heralde Well-Known Member

    Money or no, my point is why should some people be made subjects, while others are kings?
  15. Redsonga Active Member

    Becuase someone started the system one day and found that more gets done (for better or for worst) when you have a leader. Like anything it can be used for great good or great evil but by doing away with it all together I think we crush a lot of that history and the good that may or may not be done by the idea...It's a part of humanity I think :)

    If nothing else at least Jr. would have been an active king ..ordering around his...pumpkins or something :excited:
    Like I said, as being a king is shown in FR I think Jr. would have been just fine, just fine:).
    Other than that I love season 4 ^.^
  16. heralde Well-Known Member

    Someone started the monarch system because they wanted power. ;)

    Of course I'm not saying you can't have leaders. As you say, they get things done. The Fraggles would be lost without Gobo. But that's again based on his personality and expertise that he worked at, not because he was simply born to be the leader. I think it means more if the leader actually earns his/her right to lead. As opposed to simply being born into it. :)

    But again, I would be interested in seeing your fanfic (and I would be nice hehe). :)
  17. Redsonga Active Member

    My theory is that the first kings (human wise) were actually picked for being like Gobo and that they use to think those talents were carried by blood and later when no one remembered that it became about power....
    Actually, Gobo was born to a line of adventurers if we go by where we see his great uncle..so it's not too much of a stretch to say he is a born leader :)

    ------> My fanfic in bottom link, just started...
    I don't remember if you read Midnight Place? It is set after that :).
  18. heralde Well-Known Member

    Well there is that whole nature vs. nurture debate, hehe. I'm sure he was born with these qualities of course. But he also worked at it and chose it. And I'd rather work at my skills and accomplish them, rather than being born to them with no work. ;)

    EDIT: Ohhh thanks, I'll check it out. :)
  19. Redsonga Active Member

    I think you can be born into a job and still work hard to make yourself and the job even better :). It's only a limit if you see it as one...Who knows what Jr. could have done really? :excited:

    Edit: If you have not read Midnight Place yet a better copy is on FF.Net here. Actually, better copies of all my stories are there, here does not let my dyslexia edit enough...
  20. heralde Well-Known Member

    It's a limit to those who weren't so lucky to be born into advantage, even though they have the abilities. That's what's unfair to me. :)

    But yes you can born into a job and try hard.

    Cool, and good for you, I've yet to try my hands at FF.net. :)

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