Creature Shop Dude Fibbed!

Fozzie Bear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Messages
13,372
Reaction score
148
Well, sort of.

At MuppetFest they showed a CGI Kermit and Gonzo on the screen (see the photo gallery in Articles) using a new contraption and they promised this wouldn't take over the role of The Muppets.

HOWEVER, they are developing this as a means of computer-generated-puppetry. What is that, then? CGP??

I felt a sort of rant was due. Andrew posted this link at his Beartown.com site (which you should check out!)

~Kev

See the article here:

And for those who hate clicking:

A revolution threatens puppet regimes

Since Yoda's puppet strings were replaced by a digitalized Jedi Master in Star Wars, jobs for puppeteers have been scarce

By CHRIS LACKNER
Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - Page R1

While the puppeteers behind the Tony-winning Avenue Q have won over Broadway, their success comes at a time when many puppeteers -- and puppets -- find themselves being replaced by pixels.

Avenue Q, a satire of puppet-based children's programs such as Sesame Street, was the surprise winner of best musical at the Tony awards on Sunday night and also picked up the awards for best book and best original score.

The New York-based production is being heralded as a breakthrough for puppetry as a form of adult entertainment. But can its victory, and the critical success of puppeteers such as Canadian Ronnie Burkett, who brings a dark edge to his one-man puppet shows (Street of Blood, Tinka's New Dress), revive a vanishing art?

Avenue Q's popularity, for example, comes at a time when many North American puppeteers are hungry for work. Evidence that their job prospects are evaporating can be seen in Hollywood's embrace of computer graphics.

The Lord of the Rings' Gollum was computer-animated, though based upon the movements and voice-work of actor Andy Serkis. For George Lucas's Star Wars prequels, Yoda's puppet strings were cast aside in favour of a digitalized Jedi Master.

"When they animated Yoda, it just wasn't the same," says Fred Stinson, a veteran Canadian puppeteer and director at The Sheep Shop, a Toronto-based puppet designer. "Many people said his soul was missing."

Stinson's resume includes the films Child's Play 4: Bride of Chucky, The Santa Clause and numerous Canadian children's shows such as Big Comfy Couch and Sesame Park.

He says digital special effects have usurped the role of animatronic (electronically controlled) puppets in film production.

"Digital work still can't capture the full realism of human movement -- it can't fully capture what it's like to live and breathe," he explains. "But the technology's getting there and it will only get better."

Such technological advancement does not bode well for the job prospects of Stinson and his peers.

Like a vast number of Canadian puppeteers, Stinson cultivated his skills while working for the legendary Jim Henson.

Canada has been a frequent home to some of Henson's Creature Shop productions since the 1980s. From 1983 to 1986, Fraggle Rock was produced in Canada and broadcast on the CBC.

When The Muppet Show debuted in 1976, Kermit the Frog, Fozzy Bear and a ragtag group of misfits and monsters were thrust into the limelight.

Today, 28 years after the late Henson's creations took centre stage, Henson's company is "giving pixels soul" and revolutionizing the role of the puppeteer. Digital worlds are replacing those once occupied by characters built of rubber, felt and feathers.

The Henson Digital Performance Studio allows puppeteers to physically "perform" computer-generated characters.

"For many years, we've been taking what we've done in the past -- which is puppet performance -- and moving it into the digital age," said Pete Coogan, managing director of Jim Henson's Creature Shop.

"This is an extension of what we've always done -- it's about characters and it's about storytelling," he said. "It didn't take a leap of faith, it's a natural progression."

The digital system enables its performers to use the same skills they've developed using animatronic puppets.

In 1991, the company first experimented with digital characterization while creating Jim Henson's Muppet Vision 3D -- an attraction at MGM Studios in Orlando, Fla.

Today the Henson digital studio is an integral part of the company's business -- a hybrid of new technology and traditional puppeteering.

Inside the digital studio, puppeteers are connected to a small rig accompanied by a computer station and screen.

They wear what look like giant gloves that are connected to a motor system; the gloves' movements are programmed to control everything from a digital puppet's eyes to its lips.

Puppeteers use the gloves to produce complex gestures, facial expressions and lip-synching, bringing digital characters to life on the screen.

Whereas traditional animation of a character's face can take days, the Henson system can produce the same results in minutes.

Animation for video games, commercials, television and films are produced in the company's two digital studios -- located in Los Angeles and London, England.

"Our puppeteers usually voice the characters too -- they capture the characters in real time with very little post-production," Coogan says.

Every puppeteer can customize the digital studio system. For one performer, a particular gloved finger can be programmed to control a puppet's eye movements, while another may elect that one to control the character's ears.

Puppeteer Allan Trautman has been in the business for 30 years and has worked for the Creature Shop since 1990.

He says the digital studio "allows puppeteers to use their natural skills" to bring digital characters to life.

"We can digitally capture what it would take an individual animator weeks to capture using key-frame animation."

Animators are provided with immediate feedback as a digital character is recorded.

"You can immediately see if you need to go in another direction," Trautman says. "[The director] will offer me advice on using different shades of emotion or approaches to delivering a line . . . once he sees what he wants, we can move on."

While Henson died in 1990, those who inherited his company say he would approve of the craft's evolution.

"Today, we're only limited by the ability of our CPUs and our imaginations," Coogan says. "Jim would have embraced this technology enormously and really enjoyed it. He loved to play -- he would have embraced it and pushed it to its limits."

For puppeteers like Stinson, digital puppetry is both a blessing and a curse.

Those who have adjusted to the new environment consider it an evolution of the craft -- a chance for continued work. But there remains a nostalgia for traditional puppetry.

"[The Creature Shop's] interests seem to be going towards the new technology . . . and they'll do well because they have a lot of talent behind them," Stinson says.

"Jim also loved new ideas and new things, but he never forgot that Kermit was a felt sock. . . . I think he loved the simplicity of things."

Henson puppeteer Bruce Lanoil says digital puppeteering offers the craft a "survival mechanism" for those willing to adjust.

"There is less meat for the lions, so everyone is protective of what they do."

The character of Mr. Tingles, a cat in the 2001 live-action film Cats & Dogs, offers a prime example of the studio mixing both forms of puppeteering, he explains. Where an animatronic puppet was used during the filming of the feline, its facial expressions were performed using the digital studio.

While Lanoil has embraced digital performance, he says traditional puppeteering will never completely disappear because actors need something tangible to interact with while performing.

Gollum's character in Lord of The Rings offers a case in point.

"[Director Peter Jackson] wanted Gollum to be actor-led," actor Andy Serkis explains during an interview for the film's DVD.

"Peter wanted Frodo and Sam looking into Gollum's eyes, rather than to a tennis ball on a stick . . . Frodo, Sam and Gollum have such a physical relationship, I don't think it could've been done any other way."

Lanoil says more actors are likely to use a computer-graphic interface -- such as the Henson digital studio -- to perform in the near future.

"All actors will be able to use these tools . . . what if you didn't have to go to makeup for hours for a role in something like Planet of the Apes?" he asks. "Tom Hanks could become a dragon, Sean Connery could become a butterfly . . . you never know, you could have actors become anything."

But he's not willing to announce a death sentence for traditional puppetry.

"Puppets still have a place in storytelling. Kids are still attuned to it, and I think the pendulum will swing back."

In Canada, Stinson hopes for the same shift. For now, he doesn't believe digital technology or Avenue Q'ssuccess are going to lead to an immediate influx of job opportunities.

"Avenue Q hasn't brought about more interest," he says. "But those who are really good at their craft are still doing work."
{I would like to say that after meeting Anthony Daniels, C3PO, at a recent convention, it sounds like George Lucas would CGI his mother if he could. Pics for this is at www.picturetrail.com/muleythemule under "Adventurecon 3" album.}
 

Luke

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2002
Messages
7,405
Reaction score
98
No rant is due just yet really. The Henson Company at least (can't say much about Disney) have always said that HDPS would not faze out traditional puppetry but would work alongside it. They have switched to doing a lot of work in HDPS but this has mainly been non Muppet projects for the Creature Shop. Gonzo and Kermit were shown in the demonstration at Muppetfest but obviously they did that because those were recognisable characters to you.

The only thing right now we've heard Henson seem to be planning to do Muppetwise with HDPS is the possible new Muppet Babies cartoon which they did tests for and would be digitally puppeteered and voiced by some of Hensons lesser known puppeteers. Whether we do ever see the classic Muppets digitally rendered you can't really say, now that Disney have a hand in it but i don't think Henson would ever want those characters specifically to go that way totally. JHC are the biggest and most respected puppet company in the world so as the article says i can see them wanting to experiment with the technology and offer it as an option to clients at the Creature Shop, you can't really expect them not to do that seeing as you can achieve things people might want that you can't do in puppetry. Thinking back they could have used HDPS to create even better and scarier ghosts for Muppet Christmas Carol or you could even have the main 5 turn into digital monsters for a quick scene in something like a Muppet Haunted House film. I just couldn't see Kermit, Piggy, Gonzo etc being shown for a whole show or movie that way though, it'd hurt their reconisability too much - people expect the puppets so instantly that it probably wouldn't work. I think even Disney would recognise that with the Classic Muppets Jim's creations have been around so long that you can't really change them that much and expect people to view them as having the same magic as before.

The other great thing about Henson having HDPS at their disposal is that at least the Muppeteers will still be getting work even if they aren't doing as much traditional puppetry. The alternative is that they sit at home while some animator in China draws the next Henson projects using CGI on a computer with no form of puppetry involved at all. With HDPS it is still the Muppeteer moving the hands, eyes, mouth etc just they have their hand in a glove connected to a computer, rather than a foam puppet. Not the same i know, but still ..
 

Fozzie Bear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Messages
13,372
Reaction score
148
Luke said:
The alternative is that they sit at home while some animator in China draws the next Henson projects using CGI on a computer with no form of puppetry involved at all...
Hey, don't be givin' 'em any ideas!!

I thought about this over the weekend and there would be some acceptance of this while using The Muppets, mainly if you had the Muppets in a distance from the camera, even to the point of having them walking alone in the distance, but I wouldn't use it for anything close up of the Muppets. It'd be like seeing Yoda as obviously CG, it wouldn't work.

An example of what I was thinking about is during TMM at high noon when, from over Doc Hopper's shoulder, we see Kermit exit the building and walk to the middle of the street for their confrontation--then, he'd have been in the distance and not so easily recognized as CG as he is in the close-up shots, and it could be intermixed with the actual puppet's legs close up, etc.

And, yes, I do think about these things during the weekend...I need a life... :smirk:

Oh, and one other thing: This could also end up being an answer to our necessity to see the Fraggles continue on since it would cost too much to build puppets, see? :excited:
 

Klonoa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
403
Reaction score
3
The intro scenes on the Muppets Party Cruise video game are CG.

--Klonoa
 

jediX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2002
Messages
1,994
Reaction score
6
Klonoa said:
The intro scenes on the Muppets Party Cruise video game are CG.

--Klonoa
But was anything in that game up to Muppet-par? :wink:
 

Barry Lee

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Messages
2,565
Reaction score
21
I heard disney *might* do a CGI version of MB :attitude:
 

Klonoa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
403
Reaction score
3
jediX said:
But was anything in that game up to Muppet-par? :wink:
Well it was one of the better Muppet games at least.

--Klonoa
 

Manda:-D

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2002
Messages
1,395
Reaction score
24
Didn't they say they might use computer animation to make certain Muppets even more expressive? (Enabling Gonzo to close both eyes all the way at the same time, etc.) I certainly have a problem w/all-CG Muppets, but computer technology DOES have the power to make the Muppets do even more amazing things. (Though, they managed to have dance scenes & ride bikes WITHOUT that, thank you very much. :attitude: )
 

jediX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2002
Messages
1,994
Reaction score
6
I'm big on CG and have an interest in attempting it myself, but Muppets is something I won't tolerate as it. Muppets just aren't Muppets unless they're puppets (well, I'm not counting Muppet babies). In response to the CG Yoda, yes, it DID look considerably better than the E1 puppet Yoda (that thing didn't even look like him). In ESB/ROTJ, Yoda really didn't have much action at all... he walked... he talked... he beat R2 with a stick... he made inspirational comments in a backpack... but none of these really required any extra work. But once the little guy had to kick some, well, you-know in AOTC, the puppet barrier was definately met. Even attempting to use a puppet for that scene would have been ridiculously pointless. Yada yada yada...

And JHC DID use CG before...:ahem: Waldo :ahem: And I don't remember anyone complaining that The Muppets were using computer graphics (as demonstrated in 'Secrets of the Muppets' JHH episode, Waldo's movements are captured from a motion-capture glove that has the same functions of a traditional puppet [as Luke pointed out in post #2]). Jim was big on innovation (I mean, just think of all the numerous innovations he and company came up with over the years), and I seriously doubt he would have phased out puppets completely to go with a cheaper cg animation. I don't know about Disney, though... :smirk:
 

Fozzie Bear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Messages
13,372
Reaction score
148
But, we're talking about Waldo: one character. I don't think any of us would want to see the Muppets become totally CG.

Take a look at what happened to ET, even. He became less real to me when they did the CG work in the anniversary edition than he was as a puppet.

Even attempting to use a puppet for that scene would have been ridiculously pointless. Yada yada yada...
Don't you mean "yoda yoda yoda?" heh heh heh!

I think the main problem with Empire Strikes Back Yoda was the fact that you had a puppet with all these bulky mechanics and wires in him. He's a stiff puppet besides. Just like Jen and Kira in Dark Crystal, they were pretty stiff looking. But, they were real, and tangible, and the artist weren't attempting to make them look more real by over-doing it. In EP1 SW and EP2 SW, they could have used the puppet for up-close shots and for wide shots gone to CG and I'd have felt better about it, but the CG was too "CG" for me.

I heard Anthony Daniels speak a few weekends ago, and he said that the entire stage sets are blue screen, and only a few things (chairs, levers) are actually there anymore. He said that George Lucas will walk around and tell him (while still in the C3PO outfit), "Just say these lines over there off the camera, and we'll CG you in later." (GL is too into CG, IMO.) Anthony said he'd tell him, "Well, why don't I just do the scene since I'm right here anyways?" And George would smack his lips and say, "Oh. Okay."

Really, it's all hypothetical right now anyways, and there hasn't been a pure announcement yet that any of these things are actually going to happen--but it makes for good discussion I reckon, eh?
 
Top