Respectful Politics Thread (Let's Just See)

[LittleJerry92]

So I'm guessing the shooter was a cisgendered straight white Christian male with an AR15 and people are giving him sympathy cause he's white?

 

[jvcarroll]

I know many (some) of you are concerned about how much the NRA spends on lobbying efforts and how the Republican party is loyal to their $$$, especially in the wake of another tragic school shooting. And rightfully so.

But I saw this tweet today and thought it was interesting.

Planned Parenthood is spending 30 million dollars in the midterm elections If they have that kind of cash why are taxpayers forced to subsidize them?​

They sell body parts and make a fortune off the hundreds of thousands of American children they slaughter, its disturbing. And yet there is NO outrage. The number of innocent babies murdered annually by Planned Parenthood blows away the number of children murdered in school shootings. And yet abortion is just accepted in America as a normal part of everyday life. Unlike the school shootings, these are government subsidized murders, thanks in a large part by the Democratic politicians as recipients of their campaign donations. Think about that.

Here's a thought. Any organization that gets government subsidies should not be allowed to make financial contributions for candidates and elections. Including Big Pharma, Wall Street and finance, . . . . everyone!

It will never happen because just as the Republican politicians are afraid of alienating it's NRA donors, the Democrats are afraid of their Planed Parenthood donors. And both parties are afraid of Wall Street and Big Pharma. I saw a stat where pharmaceutical companies contribute to lobbying efforts 10 times (10 times!!!) the amount the NRA does!

Please source where Planned Parenthood is selling body parts. What I believe you are pointing to has already been nailed as an edited contrivance and not legitimate.

Also, no abortion is paid for by tax dollars by Planned Parenthood or any other organization. There have been allegations of creative bookkeeping, but it is not legal for them to do so. Most of what Planned Parenthood does is to offer women healthcare and screenings that have nothing to do with abortion. As far as abortion itself, it is still legal and the argument has already worked its way through the Supreme Court. Conflating the NRA with Planned Parenthood is bizarre. There are very few Democrats who don't believe in a woman's right to choose what to do with her body, pregnant or otherwise, but they do exist. I've met some.

Guns are legal too. We forget that. However, any right, whether it's the right to own firearms or the right to do whatever you choose with your body, both should have limits and there should definitely be an ongoing conversation. I have no problems legislating limits on either. Some dems do. Heck, there are plenty of democrats who don't want limits on firearms either. I've met many.

The fact is, few people can defend the gun lobby's tactics at face value. Another argument must be thrown into the mix. It must be compared to something else in order to devise an excuse. Our Founding Fathers never really thought of firearms the way we do today. Women and blacks were still considered property.

There are a lot of larger conversations to be had. Abortion is definitely one of them - because we, the people, never really got a say. SCOTUS did. And that's why there's still a lot of friction today. The ruling was made before the nation was comfortable with it. Over half the nation IS comfortable with a woman's right to choose. Most of our nation, however, including most polled NRA *membership*, does not approve with how our nation handles guns.

Doing the same thing over and over again is the very definition of insanity. We, the people, aren't being given a vote on this issue either. Our representatives in Washington, both democrat and republican, are - and many of them, from BOTH parties (but mainly republican) are more beholden to their donors and lobbyists than they are the people they are supposed to be representing when it comes to guns. Most of America is screaming for change. Something, anything, different to break this chain of gun violence. That's what's being drowned out here. That's statistically the singular issue where the majority of Americans aren't being heard. That, all together, I believe is a fair assessment based in fact and history.

 

[jvcarroll]

Please excuse the bolded text, but there was a lot of stuff to unpack there and a lot of concessions I make that might surprise some folk.

While I'm remarkably progressive, I come from Texas where Pro-Life and Pro-Gun politics reign. I've heard, and continue to hear, everything under the sun about both from lefties in Cali and righties in Texas on a regular basis.

What it all comes down to is being heard. US citizens, from both parties, do not believe their voices are being heard. That doesn't mean that we passively agree with others. On the contrary, we all need to stick to the values that make us who we are. We do, however, need to explore the values that make others who they are too. We need to listen.

In times of passion, we need to learn to be more assertive than we are aggressive and more compassionate than willful to be right. That's what I've been trying to do (and failing a bit at doing), particularly in recent days. Not everybody has it in them to do those things.

I can say one thing. If Secretary Clinton had that willingness, no amount of Russian interference, fake news, or decades of mudslinging could have derailed her campaign for President. Trump pretended to listen and to empathize with so many forgotten Americans and that was seen as the next best thing.

Obama offered Hope & Change. Trump offered Blame & Rage. Hillary offered Lectures & the Status Quo of the troubled DNC. And that, my friends, is what radical honesty looks like.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Over half the nation IS comfortable with a woman's right to choose.

A little more complicated than that. People are NOT comfortable with the frequency, normalization, or celebration of abortion. That is what the Democrats don’t understand, and in fact, outright refuse to understand. At their own detriment, time and again.

 

[jvcarroll]

A little more complicated than that. People are NOT comfortable with the frequency, normalization, or celebration of abortion. That is what the Democrats don’t understand, and in fact, outright refuse to understand. At their own detriment, time and again.

Yuppers. I can agree with that. In the end, little of this is about the issues as much as the voice and the will of the people being ignored. Obama, and to an extent Trump, spoke to that. Nobody, however, is DOING anything about that now. Obama was blocked on so much he tried to do. Trump doesn't seem interested in the people as much as his donors. He had all of that rough talk about guns that just evaporated and was never addressed again. Pundits think that voters were disillusioned last election. Just wait until 2020 when half of Trump's voters are appalled by his lack of effectiveness to get anything done. The dealmaker. Meh. Not so much. I'm hoping for a sea-change in the midterms. New candidates not yet infected by greed. Not that it won't eventually happen. I know, I have a sunnier disposition than the likely reality.

 

[jvcarroll]

A little more complicated than that. People are NOT comfortable with the frequency, normalization, or celebration of abortion. That is what the Democrats don’t understand, and in fact, outright refuse to understand. At their own detriment, time and again.

But I don't think abortion ITSELF is celebrated. The right for women to do what they wish with their bodies, after centuries of oppression, is the celebration. We both live in a time when women were never considered property, but two generations before us, that's how y'all were seen in this country. ACK! So, yes, the frequency and normalization, I agree are problems. But nobody celebrates an abortion - and anyone who'd think that's what they'll feel afterward are in for quite a shock!

 

[CensoredAlso]

But I don't think abortion ITSELF is celebrated. The right for women to do what they wish with their bodies, after centuries of oppression, is the celebration. We both live in a time when women were never considered property, but two generations before us, that's how y'all were seen in this country. ACK! So, yes, the frequency and normalization, I agree are problems. But nobody celebrates an abortion - and anyone who'd think that's what they'll feel afterward are in for quite a shock!

The idea that abortion is the opposite of oppression is the fallacy. In fact, abortion is often still a tool used to abuse and oppress women. And also the disabled. The celebration of choice is one built on a denial of much of the reality. And yes, there are people who celebrate abortion itself, who want it to be as casual as getting your tonsils removed. Yea they are extreme but as we’ve discussed, the party isn’t distancing itself from them.

 

[jvcarroll]

The idea that abortion is the opposite of oppression is the fallacy. In fact, abortion is often still a tool used to abuse and oppress women. And also the disabled. And yes, it is celebrated.

It can be. Many things can be used in different ways. But I disagree that abortion itself is celebrated. I know many women who've had them, some regret them, some don't, but NO ONE I've ever met has celebrated abortion. I don't know what people you've been listening to, but they sound horrifying.

 

[CensoredAlso]

It can be. Many things can be used in different ways. But I disagree that abortion itself is celebrated. I know many women who've had them, some regret them, some don't, but NO ONE I've ever met has celebrated abortion. I don't know where you've been hanging out, but it sounds horrifying.

I can assure you over the years I’ve encountered over and over again the sentiment that the fetus is a “parasite” out to “use” the woman. Or that abortion is great because it makes it easier for women to have careers or other children later in life (ironically). Plus I think you’re looking at some of the celebration and assuming it’s only about the choice. It’s not that cut and dry.

And you say anything can be used for bad purposes, but liberals do not EVER address this when it comes to abortion. It is ignored. It is tolerated. The same way conservatives only want to hear the romantic side of guns.

 

[jvcarroll]

I can assure you over the years I’ve encountered over and over again the sentiment that the fetus is a “parasite” out to “use” the woman. Or that abortion is great because it makes it easier for women to have careers or other children later in life (ironically). Plus I think you’re looking at some of the celebration and assuming it’s only about the choice. It’s not that cut and dry.

And you say anything can be used for bad purposes, but liberals do not EVER address this when it comes to abortion. It is ignored. It is tolerated. The same way conservatives only want to hear the romantic side of guns.

I have more than a foot in both worlds and see that as a false equivalence, but will agree to disagree here.