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When Kermit Met Piggy...

Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by Speed Tracer, Jun 25, 2007.

  1. BeakerSqueedom

    BeakerSqueedom Well-Known Member

    Yah, Piggy is a lady! A lad- I mean a pig needs respect (And commitment)! XD

    It kinda makes a big joke of her. Omg now I am starting to feel sorry fo her.

    XD LOL!
  2. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    Piggy didn't come about until 1975, so it's only been just 0ver 30 years technically. I don't think, when the love story was introduced in the first place that anybody really expected that the characters, not alone the interest in their relationship, would last as long as they have.

    The people who write for the Muppets now are only basing everything on the way the relationship has been throughout The Muppet Show and the movies. It would probably seem a bit stupid to change everything now, especially after 30 odd years.
  3. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    And yet, I feel at least, that we have had all the Piggy thinks it's on, Kermit thinks it's off jokes. We had those for the first few seasons of The Muppet Show, and then in TMM. And then the characters grew, the situations changed slightly through GMC, MTM, and the laster seasons of The Muppet Show, and they could bring humor through Kermit being shy of his involvement, and yet heart through his being sure of it.

    And then they sort of back-tracked the relationship, and start on ground zero in each movie. Interesting that Gigglesock (whose name, I confess to not knowing, so giggle-sock ye are.) mentioned Shrek, because in a way that is a good model to follow.

    In the first movie, Shrek and Fiona fell in love, in the second they had their first lover's tiff's and got over them and were, once again, in love. In the third, they have to deal with having a baby.

    I don't think that admitting that Kermit and Piggy are married, and giving them figs would be the end of the romance, but would rather be the beginning of a whole new set of jokes, problems, arguments, heartfelt tender moments.

    Imagine, Kermit onstage introducing a number...while holding trying to hold a baby, and pull a toddler off his leg.

    Or, Miss Piggy onstage for an elaborate musical number, pausing to shout childcare tips offstage to her husband. "He lost his sock!"
  4. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    I can see what you mean. To me, tho, having them married with children would take them even further away from the Muppets I grew up with and loved as a child. Disney have already made a good job of changing and cheapening them so far and I think that any more changes from how they were "back in the day" would ruin them altogether.
  5. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    I can see what you mean there. Almost as if Beauregard slowly became more intelligent throughout the series until he had a master's degree...I guess I can understand why that wouldn't work.
  6. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    The only thing that Disney really have is a long back catalogue of Muppet programs, specials and movies. Changing the Muppet back story that Jim, Frank or Jerry Juhl created would be criminal and I don't think Disney or the new Muppet writers would be confident or foolhardy enough to do that. Fozzie should always be a failed comedian, Gonzo should always be crazy and have a thing for chickens, Animal should always be woman hungry and... well, just hungry, and Kermit & Piggy should always have a love/hate relationship.
  7. Barry Lee

    Barry Lee Well-Known Member

    Yeah, Miss Piggy and Kermit with Children would not be funny at all. It ends the tension between the two, and it ends a mystery, I like just the fact they keep teasing us into believing what we want to believe. Thats one of the many things that makes the Muppets wonderful.
  8. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    Shrek was released worldwide in 2001 and you can almost guarantee that the story line, marriage and kids would have been planned pretty much at the very beginning. The Muppets have been around since the 1950s and the Kermit and Piggy story started in around 1975. It is much easier to create a story line for characters that have no background history, have only been in three movies and have only been around for a few years. The Muppet Show during the 70s and 80s was one of THE biggest TV shows of all time and changing characters in any big way would be a great risk.

    It's not so much as "the same joke they have been telling for 40 years" just more of a story line that could only really develop one way. It would be like Mulder and Scully getting together in The X Files. Once it's been done there is little further the story could be taken.
  9. CensoredAlso

    CensoredAlso Well-Known Member

    I totally agree with this!

    However, I don't think the Muppets offer nothing to today's audience. Their best work is simply not being distributed, not being given the time of day. Sometimes it has been, and people (adults and kids) have genuinely enjoyed it. But the media doesn't seem to want to listen. So it's not true that people aren't continuing to enjoy them. It's just ended up being a "behind the scenes" thing.

    ::shrugs:: It would be great if they were given more attention, it would be easier for people to see them. However, I'm happy as long as they are still genuinely influencing people who do get to see them. Popularity does not equal quality.
  10. minor muppetz

    minor muppetz Well-Known Member

    With all this talk about expanding the Muppets and making such changes, I would like to ask this: Have the classic Disney characters had any major, significant changes over the years?
  11. BeakerSqueedom

    BeakerSqueedom Well-Known Member

    Totally, they've become more 'hip' and 'jiggy with it' type of thing. XD
  12. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    Okay, so we know have a dilemma for Disney. Bring the classic Muppet characters hurtling into the 21st Century by updating them and chaing their personalities or keep using the same old situations and jokes that made them so popular in the first place. I, for one, have liked very little of what the Muppets have had to offer since the early 90s and I would much prefer to see the classic moments from Muppet history rather than anything new they have to offer. Somewhere during the 90s the magic died. Not just between Kermit & Piggy but with the Muppets in general.
  13. BeakerSqueedom

    BeakerSqueedom Well-Known Member

    It's not that bad. If it was then they'd perish fully.
    I mean there are so many fans on this site that will cheer for them.
  14. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    It's fans like us that generally keep them going. What I have noticed is there is most excitement when somthing like The Muppet Show Season 2 DVD is being released and not as much for the new show they are trying to put together. To me, that shows that Muppet fans care more about everything they have done more than what they might do in future.
  15. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    I agree...in part. What this really shows is that the Fans have not been given anything juicey to play with. We know what the TMS Season 2 is, it's exactly that. So we can be excited. We have no idea what the new news is. Is it a movie? A documentary? A mini-movie? An appearance? We can't speculate on something we have no skeleton of understanding with.
  16. Mistersuperstar

    Mistersuperstar Well-Known Member

    Fair enough. Personally tho, I would still be more excited in seeing some unreleased footage from The Muppet Show or The Muppet Movie than anything new they could offer. The new stuff doesn't interest me. That's just my own opinion tho. :)
  17. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    Musings on the frog and pig

    Okay, it's time to weigh in on this topic. (Where the heck have I been?)

    Since I am one of the official old folks on the board, I'm going to invoke the priviledge of older folk and talk about what life was back when I was a kid. I had the priviledge of growing up with the Muppets--I watche Sesame Street YEARS before all of you were born, and I got to see TMS every single week as it debued. I subscribed to the magazine, was a member of the fan club. I bought their merchandise as it came out--and there was A LOT OF IT--and I remember not being able to go into Hallmark without being inundated with Muppet stuff. Muppet tablecloths, napkins, bridge cards, greeting cards, plaques, calendars, etc. I sent Muppet Christmas cards and decorated my tree with muppet ornaments--as they came out. All of this doesn't make me an expert, but it certainly gives me a different perspective than you young folks who didn't watch this evolve. Let me see if I can illustrate.

    Anybody out there a first-run Trekkie? Now that Star Trek has five--COUNT 'EM FIVE--series, multiple movies and enough merchandise to clog a wormhole, it's hard to imagine that Star Trek was ever beleaguered and needed the help of fans. Fans of ST today just cannot understand the shift in perspective that all us old folks have gone thru--they take much for granted.

    So, putting that in Muppet terms, I watched TMS evolve from a show that was lacking ANY United States support--a show that had to actually appeal to a foreign country for backing--into the hottest thing around. Get this--The Muppets became hot before people said, "hot." Am I getting through?

    Now that I’ve said that, let’s talk about the evolution of the characters. Kermit used to be a straight-man staple on the Street, and if you needed someone to get completely discombobulated by a weird situation, then Kermit was your frog. Grover drove him crazy, and our favoriate amphibian did no end of funny, funny interviews with various characters while mayhem happened around him. Like Rowlf, Kermit was one of Jim’s true voices, and that made him a natural for hosting a variety show, on which anything and everything MIGHT happen, and usually did.

    So they did a pilot, and it was funny but still evolving. Do you remember the pilot for your favorite show? Sometimes it takes a while for things to settle in. And while Kermit was already a known quantity, and Rowf was being revived, everyone else was pretty much created from scratch.

    Fozzie, for instance, was supposed to be a brash, in-your-face and horrible comedian. The writers thought it would be funny to have a comedian that wasn’t funny, who week after week would bomb phenomenally. It quickly became apparent that, while that may have seemed funny initially, it wasn’t in practice. Fozzie had to be revamped. The first time FOzzie seemed to really hit his mark was when he took off his hat, gave puppy-dog eyes to the audience and said something like, “Please don’t boo! I’m trying sooo hard!” Immediately, our hearts went out to him. “Yeah!” we told those old men in the balcony. You leave him alone! And we were suddenly on his side.

    Piggy wasn’t initially slated to be a star, which was one of the reasons that she wasn’t initially assisgned a regular muppeteer. Frank’s voice was assumed to be Fozzie, and of course Animal in the band, but there was no predicting what might happen once Frank Oz had an idea and moved on it.

    Jim was a remarkable leader. He not only encouraged suggestions and improvisation from his cast and crew, but he gloried in ANYTHING that made the show better, even if it one-upped him, or the scene as it was written. If what happened by whim or accident was better than what was written, then more’s the better. In that infamous chorus scene, Piggy was just supposed to sing the solo. That’s it. That’s all. (And for all you naysayers of the frog-pig romance, just listen to the way Kermit talks to her. Disinterested by, um, shoe.) Instead, Piggy literally stepped out of the chorus to take the song—and the songleader—by storm. A star was born, and to thunderous applause. I would like to point out that this is the way it often happens in real life—a minor character catches the imagination of the audience and suddenly everything shifts.

    Again, because I’m old and decrepit, let me try to put this in context for you younger people. We were at the height of the women’s movement. Women still did not enjoy the same rights as men under many laws of the country, and the emergence of the woman who could “Bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan” (my apologies, Piggy, my dear) and do it all while looking and acting like a sexpot were upon the American public. Piggy caught the eyes and the imagination of the public because she was brassy, strong, talented and wouldn’t be condescended to. She also wasn’t going to sit home (no cell phones, remember?) waiting for any man to call her. When she saw something she like, she spoke up, and she wasn’t above planting more than a few kissy-kissy kisses on a certain amphibian. While certainly bowled over, Kermit never initially said things like, “Get off me!” or “Somebody called security.” When Kermit said, “Sheesh!” and quaked in his, um, boots, it seemed obvious to some that he was equal parts thrilled and terrified. Piggy frequently made reference to their dates and their future life together, and Kermit never says “There isn’t going to be one.” He usually side-steps by saying, “That hasn’t happened yet,” or “It’s not going to happen right now.” All the while, he’s continuing to go out with Piggy and make a jealous fool of himself when it seems necessary. As for Kermit “not minding” when Piggy fawns over someone else, like Christopher Reeve, all I can say is, “Watch that episode again.” Kermit is obviously smitten, and why shouldn’t he be? Piggy’s gorgeous and talented, a diva and a supermodel. Again, although it makes me sound like and old gaffer—and yes, that is my real age up there—I remember the time when Piggy was at the height of her popularity. She was on posters, cards, books, plaques, buttons, pins and—my oh my—calendars. In other words, I remember when Kermit was just Piggy’s nerdy boyfriend. And don’t get all huffy with me—if there is a more lovable nerdy amphibian out there more deserving of Piggy’s bodacious affection, I’ll eat my hat and his, too. Those of you who wonder what Kermit sees in her mystify me, because for so long, it was the other way around, and part of the joke was that the Divine Swine, who could have her pick of mast co-stars, always chose her heart over good sense.

    Now, I don’t know how to broach this next without just being sortof blunt, so let me take a deep breath and speak frankly. Social mores were different back then. Women did not play around—at least not openly—like they do now. Having many, um, boyfriends did not make you popular back then. It made you common, and I don’t mean in a good way. No one back then thought it was appropriate for women to a conspicuous lover, much less several. Because of that, and because Piggy, like each of us, is a product of her time, Piggy didn’t just try to have a fling with Kermit. (How hard would that have been, if that’s all she was after?) Also due to social mores, Kermit probably would have been horrified if he thought that was all Piggy was after. Piggy didn’t “want to have a relationship with Kermit.” She HAD a relationship with Kermit, but she wanted more. She wanted to marry him, to spend her life with him, to make him happy and be made happy by him in return. She wanted the sort of love that people still dream about—someone who cares about you and wants what is best for you.

    If you don’t take this into consideration, and you apply current social mores on their behavior, you won’t get a true picture of what was really happening. So when Piggy tries to shang-hai Kermit into a commitment, it’s because she wants a life-time of waking up to his scrunchy face and morning breath. She wanted permanence, and commitment. The possibility (if not the reality) of little progs and figs.

    Now, I don’t know if you have noticed, but Kermit is very insecure about people leaning on him, counting on him to take care of them, or be in charge. One several occasions we see him lose it when everyone crowds around and demands that he have the answers to everything. Any way you cut it, Kermit’s insecurity about living up to people’s expectations and Piggy’s high-maintenance persona make for a lot of uncomfortable moments. What if he commits and fails? How horrible is that? (If you know, don’t answer. You have my pity.) Piggy, on the other hand, won’t, um, concede without the stability and commitment of marriage. THERE is your relationship tension, and it wasn’t all that complicated, was it?

    Now, I’ve had my say about the frog and the pig, and probably taken much more than my share of time. When you’ve recovered from this, I might have a say about where I think the muppets ought to go next.
  18. BeakerSqueedom

    BeakerSqueedom Well-Known Member

    Wow.That shuts this thread up. Very well explained! :O

    I guess my insecurities of the two have vanished. Thanks Ruahnna! <3
  19. theprawncracker

    theprawncracker Well-Known Member

    Ru, you're the best. Hands down. You've got this thing down pat. Thank you. And I would absolutely LOVE to hear where the Muppets should go next.
  20. Beauregard

    Beauregard Well-Known Member

    Step aside, Peter Parker.

    There is something that people can connect to. It's Will Turner pineing after Elizabeth Swann, Lady falling in love with the Tramp, Spiderman falling in love with Mary Jane. Impossible love, happening.

    But going back to what Ru said about the world being different -- and calanders -- many of us have never had the oppertunity to tune in to the subtlty and suggestion of those days, when the Miss Piggy calanders added their unerring support to the Piggy Froggy romance.

    Bea;zany:{P.S. Where should the Muppets go next?}regard

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