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Discussion in 'Muppet Headlines' started by MrBloogarFoobly, Oct 24, 2011.
Um, if I'm wrong I'll admit it. But I won't withhold my opinion just because you don't like it.
I didn't like it at first, but I really don't mind it. I wouldn't say they didn't know how to tell it, but I would agree that it could have been done differently. I think it would have worked just as well if Fozzie had said, "Check out my shoes!" or just "Check it out!" while omitting the fart line (or any substitution) altogether. But like I said, for me it still works OK.
Exactly, if they had done that, it wouldn't have been just a cheap laugh.
I don't think he's telling you to have no opinion about it so far, but just to remember first that this isn't in the right context. For all we know, it could be in the same context as the first trailer it was in, mocking that type of humor, and saying that The Muppets shouldn't resort to that.
I still wouldn't think it was a well executed joke.
If I misunderstood the comment, I apologize.
Maybe I can explain it better. We truthfully do not know the full context of the Fart Shoes joke. Given the track record with modern movies, the fear is that it is being used to get cheap laughs and draw in the "Dur hur...he said fart. Heeheheheheheheheh" Beavis and Butt-Head people. I personally dont find any fart jokes funny, even tastefully done, but I dont have a problem with them. Its the jokes of the cheap laugh variety I hate.
Well, you just might change your mind when you see the movie.
I also accept your apology.
I hope so, I'm not looking forward to being disappointing or anything, lol. And thanks.
Yeah, both of these articles were great- it really pointed out that the Muppets are not perfect, nor are they meant to be...Kermit actually said it really well during his press interviews in Toronto this week when he said the Muppets are really successful failures: Fozzie is a comedian but a lot of the times is not funny when he tries to be...Piggy is an actress but sometimes can't really act, etc. Love the whole idea of really successful failures-totally works with the Muppets- they set out to do something and they don't always succeed- but they don't go down without a fight and they do some fantastic and hilarious stuff along the way!
I absolutely love and admire Frank Oz, but he brought the whole bad guy thing on himself by making the comment he did to reporters. He could have just said, " I turned the new movie down, I've deciding to keep pursuing my current directing projects" or something like that. There was no reason for him to add the comment about whatever early version of the script he saw for him to answer the interviewer's question. He chose to answer that way and even though he said he didn't want to be a sourpuss and discredit the movie, that's exactly what he did and one some level he had to know it would.
Still I think that's the typical diplomatic PR statement that everyone would see through. It's refreshing to me when public figures are honest. Honesty shouldn't mean you're the bad guy.
Something else Kermit has done that's worse than living in a mansion - let Alice Cooper on the show. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Alice fan and I love that episode, but he KNEW Alice was handing out deals with the devil, and he let it go on! That's just not safe.
It's more like booger eating 3 year olds that find it funny... it's new to them. I honestly want someone to pound the guy who wrote the "Dutch oven" joke in the Chipmunks sequel ... that way he can see how unnecessarily painful that one was. it served NO purpose, it wasn't the slightest bit funny... it was just... so... painful and made me hate the rest of the movie even more.
On the other hand, I LOVED the exploding mine bubbling up behind the sea bird in Finding Nemo. That was at least subtle and a fun way to end a gag.
It's just the manner of shock when something like that is introduced it actually is funny the first couple of time, then every no talent hack runs with it and spoils the joke, making it annoying. Remember, it was not too long ago when saying "Butt" was shockingly funny, then it became gratuitous... and let's not forget 1990's cartoon burps...
No better example. That's the premium. You can tell you're going to get a nice burp joke if Maurice LaMarche is in the voice cast... he's responsible for all those REALLY loud wet disgusting burps you always hear.
Lol, yeah I mean that clip works because of the build up to it, the classy music with a slightly ironic twinge, so you know something's off.
But let's not forget Wakko ALWAYS burped.
Note... Wakko farts in this one...
that's like the first time I think I even saw one of those go through on television.
I've been thinking about this whole thing for days (yeah, yeah--I've ordered a life but they're out of stock) and finally decided to jump back in because of this one specific thing I want to say, and that is this: If you were Frank Oz (whom I admire and respect) and you had--in collusion with Jim Henson and a host of other amazing puppeteers--created one of the most memorable divas ever--how would you feel about the way she is treated now? Would you be happy to see Piggy portrayed as ignorant and rude, fat and romantically appalling?
Piggy on TMS might have spoken with a faux French accent, but it was her vulnerability and desperation to be thought chic and sophisticated shining through that made it charming. (THINK! REMEMBER that very sweet, very romantic dinner she and Kermit shared in TMM when they are BOTH pretending to be more sophisticated than they are?) She might have been teased about her weight, but she was unquestionably stunning and sexy. Kermit might have quailed at the thought of marriage, but when push came to shove--and it frequently did--he stood up and declared that Piggy was his girl, and that all those other guys could just shove off.
Even as late as IAVMMC, Kermit knows that Piggy has the star ability to draw the kind of crowd they need, and he doesn't want to see her hurt and disappointed romantically. When--exactly--did Piggy stop being her original, amazing, wonderful self and become the pork butt of every rude fat joke certain writers could think of? Think about that if you will.
When Frank was still doing Piggy, Kermit was respectful. When Frank was no longer there, it became open season from the frog down, and it's been too deliberate and too consistent to have not been some sort of official policy. Poor thing--no one has her back anymore, unless it's to hang a kick-me sign on it. The saddest part of this all--for me--is that most of the young fans see this as business as usual. Piggy? Oh--yeah, she's that embarrassing fat chic that likes Kermit. How little you know, if that's what you think.
For me, this is an Eliza Doolittle moment--the real difference between a flower girl and a lady isn't how she behaves, it's how she's treated.
I know that Muppetfan44 shares my love of Miss Piggy in all her glory, so I'm not finding fault with her comments. I'm pointing out that--IMNTBHO--Frank may have said far less than he could have, and--having said far more than I probably should have--I rest my case (and my fingers).
I think in the '70s, it was more hip to show a female character taking the lead and showing her strength, while still providing humor about herself. Today a lot of that has disappeared and women are treated as objects of ridicule, especially if they aren't super skinny.
Right, their relationship used to have layers and hidden meanings. Nowadays they've taken the same jokes but completely stripped them of their meaning so they just appear cruel.
It's probably not been official policy, but rather a shallow interpretation of the characters. Again, take a trait the character is known for, but remove the deeper meaning. That's why I don't tend to enjoy the newer films.
Well, like I've said before, there's always a possibility that maybe the new movie will bring those deeper meanings and hidden layers back.
Ru!!! So glad you commented on this thread- was wondering what your take on this article was.
I can definitely understand where you are coming from with your comments. Frank developed and molded Miss Piggy's character into one of the most beloved, popular, and dynamic female characters of all time. As Piggy slowly became less and less the amazing three dimensional character that she is and always should be and turned into the one dimensional fat mean diva that she has been starting from Muppets From Space going to Letters to Santa, it would be enough to make anyone bitter, especially Frank (and it totally made me bitter for a long time).
I know that Frank left to pursue other projects, but part of me also wonders if he ever went back to try to get Piggy back on the right track when her character portrayal started to go south. If he did, what happened and if he didn't, why didn't he try to fix it, you know?
The only thing in your comments that I might divulge from you is regarding Kermit's respectfullness when Frank was doing Piggy. I thought that Kermit was a lot more witty, teasing and perhaps disrespectful to Piggy in those days. However, because Kermit was being portrayed as a more dimensional character, that witty banter and teasing that he often would bombard Piggy with was balanced with moments where you could really tell that Kermit had genuine attraction and affection for Piggy (like when Kermit was extremely jealous when Christopher Reeve was on TMS). Now all we see is a barage of Anti-Piggy stuff with no affection or witty back and forth banter, which is very depressing for me. Ever since Muppets from Space, Kermit has also become a lot more one dimensional and rather weak-he hardly ever gets into the witty battles with Piggy that he did before. Now he ususally makes the stereotypical Anti-Piggy comment and then cowers in fear over her reaction. I've been really disappointed in the weakness of Kermit's character in recent projects.
I guess the good news in all of this is I think that the tables have been slowly turning to the more truthful and multi-dimensional version of the characters and I think the new movie will bring a real improvement to the frog-pig dynamic. I respect Frank and his opinion but when the Muppets finally have a chance to turn things around and he makes a comment like he did without the press giving a better explanation of what stage in the production process that Frank made those comments, it definitely made me upset because we didn't get the full story and because of the potential damage it could have done to the success of the new movie.
Always so glad to have a fellow passionate advocate for the frog-pig relationship that should be!!
I think I do have to add one more thing, in order to be fair. Steve has a handicap that Jim never had to contend with--Steve has a boss. Jim WAS the boss, and--by default--Kermit got to be the boss, so whatever Kermit said was, well, the way it was. Steve never had that luxury, and it HAS to matter.
The way I see the progression is this: (and this is mostly my audience eye-view, which was informed by various personal appearances) When Jim was doing Kermit, and Frank began to do Piggy, Jim and Frank had a marvelous chemistry for characters of all sorts. Bert and Ernie, Kermit and Fozzie, Kermit and Piggy. They were not in the least afraid to do something crazy, something taboo, something naughty, something different, because the truth of the relationship between the characters always undergirded what happened on the, um, stage. The affection and respect with which they treated their characters and each other always came shining through.
With Jim's passing, the mantle of Kermit passed to Steve, although when it did, it did so minus the understood leadership that went with Jim being Kermit. Initially, I thought Steve's Kermit was very sweet to Piggy, in MCC and MTI. Kermit shows Piggy deference and tenderness, and often bows to her whims when I thought he actually might have stood up to her, or at least tweaked her a little when it was Jim. Under the circumstances, this seemed very normal, and I thought it nice of Kermit to let Piggy get used to the, er, "new him." You can also see some of this gentleness in the Muppet Fairy Tales, when Kermit is always portrayed as nice to Piggy. I know that Frank didn't do the puppetry--just the voices--for that one, but the relationship dynamic is still valid. Also about that time, Kermit Unpigged came on, and Kermit is--again--exceptionally deferential to Piggy. Later on, when Eric took over the role of Piggy--an ENORMOUS mantle (and if anyone makes a crack here I will HURT you, and THEN sic the penguins on you!), Steve had settled into Kermit, and it makes sense that the more experience character would take the lead in character interactions. Somewhere about this time, Kermit apparently decided that the former love of his life was more annoying than adorable and that having a serious relationship (forget the fact that they were actually married--everyone else seems to have forgotten) was apparently cramping his style as some sort of hip "playa." His interactions with her--both on the screen and in behind-the-scenes shots--became colored with insults and snarky comments. Let me say for the record that Jim's Kermit could be remarkably grouchy and sarcastic--sometimes he was downright mean to those who ran to him for reassurance, like Fozzie and Piggy--but at the end of the day, you knew that Kermit would eventually work it out with himself and come back, sheepish if not apologetic, and make things okay. (A good example of this is the Bob Hope appearance when Piggy tries to "give" herself to Bob Hope. Kermit goes along with it, even teasing Bob about "sweetening the deal" with $5 so Bob will take her. By the end of the show, Bob, Kermit and Piggy all know that Piggy and Kermit belong together.) But THAT resolution stopped happening.
We got sarcasm or, well, maybe just immature jokes, lots of evidence that Kermit enjoyed those moments of cruelty and then...not much in reaction. For a while, it was as though Piggy didn't realize she was being dissed by the person--er, frog--that mattered more to her than any other, um, being on the planet. Those times did make me cringe because it put Piggy in the unhappy position of being the "faithful girlfriend" of someone who cheated on her and made crass comments behind her back. And it suddenly became--yuck--normal to imply that yes there was, um, that aspect of their relationship but nothing else. At this point, if Kermit was a regular guy, he'd have worked his way right off my Christmas card list. A guy who, um, enjoys the company of a girl, who takes her places as his date but then derides, insults and makes fun of behind her back--yeah, a real prince of a guy, if you catch my drift.
And can you imagine Piggy's hurt--and her NON-reaction to something like this? The Piggy I knew from TMS would have taken Kermit's head off. or simply found one of her many admirers to take her off his hands--perhaps both.
In the midst of ALL the WILD excitement over the new movie, where everyone who has any inside information is just GUSHING with praise (for which I am very, VERY glad), the response is rather quiet when asked if the old romance we had come to take for granted in TMS and the subsequent movies (THINK! REMEMBER what a BIG ROLE the romance played in the first three movies!) will be present in the new movie.
I think my best (un-spoilered) guestimate is that young fans--fans who don't remember the romance--will think The Muppets are back just like they always were. They will think this because the "not-a-Piggy-fan" Kermit is the only one they have ever known. And in the midst of all that celebrating of the return of the muppets (which I WILL be doing), I will still not forget what they were like when they were young--and I was, too.
This is my last epic post on this subject today and in this thread. I have no wish to shanghai the thread to talk about something that most fans don't seem to care about, but I'm not going to give up hoping that I'm not alone.
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