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Deja vu all over again

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by newsmanfan, Jul 6, 2011.

  1. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but you forgot the biggest parent ever, the Libertarian Pied Piper. The whole Constitutional literalism and misinterpreting of American History (from people who don't even KNOW history, yet) in favor of selfishly not wanting to pay taxes. That's Libertarian. Trust me. I looked into it, and after the initial "Nah, we shoulda stayed out of Iraq and remained isolationist" sense, there was a lot of "The only rights we should have is for big business and gun owners," "We don't want to pay for public education," and my personal favorite, "Big Government means that if I own a miniscule, non-money making small business, I'm going to go bankrupt if the government puts rules and regulations on banks and bigger companies that would run over my little coffee house/comic store with a steamroller with me in it to build an abandoned lot." They want some pretty extreme stuff that benefits no one.

    Oh... and Fox News sponsors them. Not just fuels them, SPONSORS them.

    To break down the gist of a Ted Rall comic I once saw about the Tea Party, Outrage at republicans lead to joining a group that makes you outraged at the other parties more, causing you to vote Republican as usual. There's no change... just a pseudo-patriotic name and some scary as heck policies.

    I would have respect for an anti-government movement, but it's more like a displaced anger over a section of the government over the one we just had that caused the worst to happen. Or as I like to call it, throwing the bums back in. You make an interesting point, BUT it is a little more complicated than that. Especially since it gained notoriety due to the legislation for Health Care reform. Now, it started off with reasonable logic... government run health care may not be that good, it could be a waste of money, and there might be some negative effects on Medicare. I didn't agree with that, but I saw the point. But then the anti-government militia-esque wack jobs and of course, rich Neo-Cons that are fearful that they'd have to pay their fair share to Uncle Sam, and Dr. Nick type hack doctors that want to keep screwing patients got a hold of it, and all the sudden it became about Nazi socialist Kenyian born communist trying to kill grandma and force abortions and turning the US into USSR. The absolute garbage that slimed out of their mouths was unAmerican, unpatriotic, and 100% pro lasse fare big business. An anti-government rally turned into a pro-THIS side of the government only and keep your hands off our lead painted, e-coli tainted, high fructose poison rally.

    Suffice to say, once Tea Party favorite in a blue state Scott Brown(noser) got elected after the opportunistic death of Ted Kennedy (I blame Martha Coakley and liberals that just wanted a woman to do the job... Palliuca would have kicked Brown's butt), the market value of health care provider stocks went up, followed by health care rate increases. Who are these people REALLY working for?

    I know I'm harsh, but I have no tolerance for people who say that giving us health care is exactly like the mass genocide of Jews, Gypsies, gays, mentally challenged, and others. Especially since these same Obama=Hitler types favor some pretty fascist, UNAMERICAN, Unchristian loonies like Michelle Bachman. Her logic is a lot closer to square mustache man than any Democrat or Republican out there. And niot because she's a woman, because she's a scary loonatic that wants to put up re-education centers for the young people. Really..> John McCain really shouldn't appologize about calling them hobbits... well, maybe... they seem more like orks right now...
  2. newsmanfan Well-Known Member

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    LMAO at DrTooth's creative insults.

    Oh, the uneducated always use Hitler as their boogeyman-comparison standard when they have, as you said, NO real grasp of history. And the entire Libertarian premise is the party of a few people, FOR a few people and screw everyone else; their deluded concept that LESS government regulation (their code, "interference") would be good for all is patently flying in the face of reality and history: every time we've allowed lasseiz-faire ANYTHING, someone has wound up royally destroying someone else for a buck. Period. I don't know whether humans are inherently selfish or are taught that behavior, but the fact remains that people, and especially people grouped under the black umbrella of corporations, MUST be carefully watched or else they'll steal, defraud, lie, cheat, and probably commit incest and adultery if they can get away with it on the general populace. The whole philosophy of the Libertarians -- and yes, hence the Tea Party -- is shark eat shark, or maybe shark eat all the bitty fishies and other sharks too.

    I still say this nation needs MUCH better education. People need to realize how desperately they need to be AWARE of all that goes on in the world, not just next door in Bubba's trailer. Apathy is the Tea Party's greatest weapon and they use it viciously.
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  3. heralde Well-Known Member

    No offence, but why would they want to listen when they're constantly being told how ignorant they are and treated like "trailer park" stereotypes? You can't expect people to listen when they feel like they're being insulted. That's something the Democratic party has yet to learn, and that's why they're not getting the support they need.
  4. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I've said it before... liberals are like the fat girls lunch table in high school. They say nasty stuff about the popular kids to no one (or other fat girls) passive aggressively. The truth is, they may think they're smarter than the lower class that somehow votes for people who want to destroy them, but the liberal elite is NO match for the Neo-Con Uber-elite. Those people are deviant masterminds that manage to inflict Stockholm syndrome on the poor and middle class that keep voting them into power (and then, give favors to party doners that make sure the very same people who vote for them are out of jobs). And frankly, they say things nastier than any passive aggressive fat girl liberal can and would say. The Neo-Cons can take ANYTHING the libs say and turn it against them. When the libs do that, it's clumsy and doesn't do much good.

    Seriously... why do you think they have so many female and "minority" right wing candidates now? So they can use the "progressives aren't really progressive" ammo. You know the "You only want women and blacks in politics if they're on your side. You're the REAL backwards, racists, and you don't accept people who wouldn't accept you! Boo HOO!!!!"

    So basically, they're so good at this, they can play the heck out a victim card, when their policies make victims of us all.

    I'd say, for the most part, Libertarians aren't so much uneducated as in over-educated to the point they believe their own conspiracy crackpot theories. Libertarians are like those hate groups that recruit disenchanted youths... they manage to recruit disenfranchised Republicans who want to move even further right with broken logic and Constitutional and Historical backings for their selfish grizzled old prospector agenda. I don't even hate the Republican motives as much as I hate there's. All and all, very selfish ways to not pay taxes (because we revolted against the British because they taxed us.... NO... we revolted because they taxed us WITHOUT letting the colony have a say in government... also that they forced British soldiers in the Revolutionary War to bunk in any dang house they wanted).

    These people are AGAINST public schools. I'm sorry, but that's barbaric. Not all of us can afford to send our kids to private like the party leaders, and home schooling is just for crazy people like them to be indoctrinated with something dangerous. Yes, there are times when you have to home school because a kid can't function in a public school setting for various reasons... but not to these people.
  5. heralde Well-Known Member

    I really do think the Democrats would be more of a match if they respected their voters more. Their platform very often comes across as, "We want to remake everything in our own image." And anything they disagree with needs to go, even if it's important to the voters. I'm not saying Democrats should agree with everything voters say (obviously voters aren't correct on every issue). But they should make some effort to understand and respect the voters' points of view and not just cheerfully proclaim it's all going to be over soon--and then wonder why the voters don't like them!
  6. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Not so much that, but the Democrats need the same satanic marketing firm the right has. The right renames things to sound wonderful if it's bad or horrifying if it's good.
    I once saw something on Frontline (or something...) about marketing and they talked to the right wing "consultant" that got them to change the "Estate Tax" to the "Death Tax." It still means the same thing, but by changing a word to sound like it victimizes people, rather than puts back revenue when rich old people "mysteriously" kick the bucket when their money hungry kids are next in line. Also the word "entitlement" for social security and Medicare, making it sound like some tax gulping waste of a program rather than benefits that old people earn and pay taxes into their entire lives.

    All the right needs to do is throw some scary words here and there, and the working class automatically HATES anything beneficial, but if you give it a patriotic name, like the Patriot Act (no better example than that), they'll support it. That's why the Tea Party goes with the name of a righteous act of American Disobediant, instead of calling themselves what they should be called, "the selfish old people who don't want to pay taxes and parrot outrageous things told directly to them by people who make more money writing a page of unfounded gibberish than they will their entire lives of actually working group."
    newsmanfan likes this.
  7. heralde Well-Known Member

    Both of our points are true. Bottom line, the Democrats do need a better sense of PR, lol.
  8. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    If there's one thing that the left completely fails at is manipulation. Sure, they can be manipulative if they want to, but they're just incredibly bad at it. I mean, the right and left have their bases... but it's those undecideds that really are the focus of exploitation. The people that feel they need to vote because they have to.

    Here's how it breaks down...

    Bush: Terrorists, gay marriage, brown people, regulations... all these things are coming to HURT YOU! The government wants to prod and poke at your identity! That's a good honest American thing.

    Obama: uh... I'm not Bush.

    The I'm not Bush only got him so far, considering how wimpy and weak he's been getting rid of Bush policies. his base will leave and go vote for some pie in the sky ultra left candidate that has less a chance of winning the election as Charlie Sheen... or even Charlie Brown and Snoopy, where as the undecided are listening to the vitriol and venom coming off the right, basically criticizing someone who lets them get their way and hasn't changed much.
  9. heralde Well-Known Member

    It's not only instilling fear though. The Republicans also try to reassure voters that they support things like their faith (even if it's not always true). While the Democrats sometimes (not always) come across as saying, "Faith is silly. We'll get rid of that." And again I'm not saying Democrats should always agree with the voters. But there is occasionally this vibe of intellectual elitism that is hurting them.
  10. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    The thing that bugs me is that the left gets so much crap for not being religious, but the Right can go on and uses religion to manipulate their constituents ALL the while saying the same thing the left does, but in private.

    Sort of like...

    Left: Why can't you idiots see that you're being manipulated?

    Right: I can't believe those idiots fell for it! HAHAHAHAH!

    Religious types used to be on the side of the left... but then came Darth Falwell and the whole 1980 mess... I scream for separation of church and state, not so much for the fear of religious rule, but for people to think outside their beliefs for something that does actually benefit them.

    That said, I have yet to see an atheist Democrat politician.
  11. heralde Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying they should all be religious or anything. Just that there is occasionally this very haughty attitude towards the whole idea. It's like when Republicans say they hold a monopoly on morality, when obviously they don't. In the same way, I don't think the Democrats hold a monopoly on tolerance either.
  12. newsmanfan Well-Known Member

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    Spent last night in the dubious company of a very conservative client. Eh, he's waiting around to die, so when he blathered contemptuously on about how that durned Obama is turning us "into a socialist country" and how happy he was to see Perry and Bachman on Fox News (on most of the night, thankfully with the sound off) and what a GREAT ticket the two of them would make together...I just listened and made noncommittal noises and let him enjoy his delusions. Seriously, the guy was in terrible physical shape, and it would have accomplished zilch for me to speak up...plus I was on the clock for his sake. But he's perfectly indicative of the ignorance. What really bugged me was that he later spoke knowledgably about old English history, the Domesday Booke, Battle of Hastings, etc. He used to be a software designer for a railroad. So, not uneducated...perhaps DrTooth's statement about the Teabaggers being educated beyond their mental capacity (yes, I'm greatly paraphrasing, sorry) has good merit to it...

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  13. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    CEO's still get the highest pay. They get the biggest tax cuts. The burden is on the working class, and Obama is powerless to do anything about it. How the crap is this country "socialist?"

    Yeah, uneducated isn't the word. Completely deluded and over educated in conspiracy theory, indeed.

    Bachman is the closest thing to a fascist the country could have as a leader. Above all other Republicans. Worst Romney could be is another "screw the poor, let them fight a Middle Eastern Battle that's completely underfunded and botched" Reagan/ Bush dittohead.

    I mean, the complete and utter venomous nonsense these Tea people speak about is UnAmerican to the core. They want to take votes away from young people because we're not as "smart" as them. They want net neutrality to END, even though NN lets them whine their fingers off on conspiracy theorist blogs because they're afraid of the gov'ment takin' their private informations. They WANTED the default and lower credit rating so they can pin the blame on the supposed socialists that didn't want to kick out old people on the street for the sake of keeping undeserved tax cuts. And in some extreme cases they idolize crazies... like the hack country musician with NO hit albums or songs that NO ONE has ever heard of that somehow had a crap load of money that crashed his plane into an IRS building for not paying his taxes. So, they idolize a lazy good for nothing musician that has more money than all of them combined that selfishly cheated on his taxes... YEAH! That's the stable thinking of their ilk.

    I want freaking changes too, but not ones that destroy the country and let us into the longest period of deep dark nothingness so we can rebuild to a crappy almost Dickensian land of corporations... seriously, how much like Wall*E do all these people want us to become?
  14. heralde Well-Known Member

    Then maybe it isn't that people are uneducated. Maybe they have other reasons for choosing the side they do. Perhaps the Democrats don't come across like they're speaking for them.

    If I'm critical of the Democrats, it's only because they do have so much potential but don't seem to have a clue why they are failing.
    Drtooth likes this.
  15. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Seriously... you had a guy who basically broke the world come before you. Even I had very thin expectations of what you could do and you've been disappointing. Now the only reason to vote for the president again is either A) the Reps have become scarier and scarier. What's it to say that Romney's not even my biggest fear anymore... especially what he did to the state of MA? and B) just to tick the Tea party off. Really.

    I know what they WANT to do, but they fail every time to do it. They are a weak half party. Seriously, I can't even call it a two party system anymore. It's one and a half party system. Ted Kennedy has some big shoes to fill for a tough Dem. All of them are just so pathetically Chalrie Brown-esque and Wishy Washy. Oh yeah, you want to raise taxes and get revenue we desperately need from the wealthiest pigs that aren't doing anything to create jobs... you want to raise minimum wage so people stuck in crap jobs (the only ones the corporations bother making) don't have to live on the streets. But once they hear the single wiff of the word "Socialist," they cower and back off. They deregulate things and keep wars going just like the opposing party. look at Bush. He was a bully and a total schmuck, and he GOT CRAP DONE! Every time someone said anything bad about them, he just sicked Hannity or someone at them.

    Personally, the dumb backwards country bumpkin Republican stereotype stuff doesn't really apply over here, which is why I never actually buy. Naw, we just have WASPs in the suburbs that are afraid they have to pay taxes. So, honestly, those white collar neo-con types are what bother me.
  16. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I hate to double post, but frankly, I have to say this.

    United we stand divided we fall, and we're wondering why we have a dysfunctional government. We're bitterly divided on everything and we can't see the monster behind the curtain manipulating us all. Sure, I don't like how the right manages to manipulate people the way they do, getting marketing brainwasher Frank Lutz to redefine and rename everything so bad things sound good and good things sound terrible (He's the deviant mastermind that came up with "Government take over of Health Care" among others). I've also had it with the wussbag banking loving left that stands firmly on taking toys out of Happy Meals but falters when it comes to tax hikes or regulations for the monolithic megacorps that squish us between our toes. And I especially hate the unorganized, absolutely useless "third" parties as well.

    Everyone's shouting at each other, NOTHING is getting done, we're getting extremist politicians and pundits telling us what to think... everything's going to be a mess, and NO ONE'S DOING ANYTHING about the real problem, runaway corporate greed that's destroying capitalism.

    I still find it hilarious that people think the president is a communist. We're so far from communism in this country, we're on corporate socialism. I have never been this disgusted to say I was from this country in my life. Not even when we were throwing money around to go destroy dictators we helped into power.

    This is the last I'm talking about in this thread, and frankly, I'd love to move to another country, but gosh darn it all, like the rest of the country I keep forgetting this is a global recession based on problems with global banks that keep doing the same things ours do.
    newsmanfan likes this.
  17. newsmanfan Well-Known Member

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    "Corporate socialism"...yes. Well put!

    I'm less concerned about the next pres election (frankly, I have yet to see anyone who looks like a real challenger on the Repub side) than I am the Congressional elections the next couple of years. Yes, the Dems aren't reaching the morons buying into the Tea Party (or for that matter, the "educated" ones who somehow think yelling "Yeah! Throw 'em out!" is how one gets good government); yes, they should crack down on giving any more candy to the spoiled little rich kids in suits. They're still the lesser of two evils, and I may actually vote this time (I haven't bothered for several years out of sheer disgust with it all)...although in this state (AZ) I realize my vote will likely be just a lost cause. Sometimes voting your conscience (and hey, write in Kermit or someone if you don't like any of the alternatives) is the only thing you can do...short of pulling corporate sabotage.

    What a shame that most of the military guys who could pull off a bloodless act of infrastructure sabotage (say, on Citibank or Exxon) are almost all Neocons to their crew-cut cores... We really NEED better hackers on the right side!

    On that notion...where do you guys stand on groups like Anonymous? I dislike their making sensitive personal info (like people's credit card #s) public online, but applaud their showing-up-the-complacent-companies values. Just wish they'd take down more bloodsuckers while they're at it. Oh, if I could, I would...
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  18. heralde Well-Known Member

    Lesser of two evils is a myth at this point. As far as I'm concerned, voting for any evil is still voting for evil.
  19. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    They're both useless, and figure heads. The banking and oil industry own our souls. Sure, there's always someone that TRIES to stand up towards these guys, but they either get caught up in political corruption, or they're labeled a socialist and cower and cow tow to parties that don't like them.

    I see Obama as a niche cable network. And you all know what I think about them. They have a loyal fanbase of people that want something specific that you can't find anywhere else, and once the ratings slip by 2 viewers, they pander to everyone else who's happy with the everything else they follow, essentially losing 2 demographics... the loyal fans who followed and supported them and an imaginary demographic they aren't entitled to that they can't get no matter what. In the pursuit of being "bipartisan" Obama turned into a moderate Republican for the Republicans that wanted him to fail so they can put another one of them in there. I'm almost surprised they hate him. He hasn't killed the generous tax cuts, he always gives into the budget cuts only they want (Government shut down AND debt ceiling, which the Tea Party wanted both to happen so they could blame him), he kept on the same idiot army generals from Bush that clearly just want to keep their jobs at this point... other than a completely watered down, easily repealable Health Care bill that "nobody wanted" (well, that nobody wanted after they paid a fortune to Frank Lutz to call it Government take over of health care, and plastic surgeons to appear on Crazy Beck's Cavalcade of Crackpot Conspiracies), and a couple nods to the gay community, he didn't do anything yet. And it's both because of his cowardly nature of giving into the right, and the fact that the Tea Party hijacked the country and things have been getting steadily worse once Congress got taken over.

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