Disney just shot up in awesome points

[jvcarroll]

Well said. That's why I think it just comes down to fairness and inclusion. The religious and societal arguments pertaining to the history of marriage are so convoluted that it comes down to contemporary standards anyway. I think we're almost there.

 

[CensoredAlso]

As to the "definition of marriage" -- folks, that's a myth of modern culture.

As newsmanfan said, it's really only in fairly recent history that we as a culture have tried to make marriage a moralistic concept. Since the beginning of time marriage has been about buying and selling females and ensuring they "obey" their husband. The white dress, the veil, the name changes, the father "giving" the bride away, these are remnants of a primitive society and we've just forgotten what these symbols mean.

As a Christian I believe our concept of marriage as it has been has rarely been what God intended.

 

[Drtooth]

Because Biden unwittingly put him on the spot, therefore, he had to react, one way or another.

I really want Obama to dump him and make Hillary the vice president for the next election. Just for that.

Obama's "my views are evolving" is bull. In fact, he wasn't going to bring it up (it's a wedge issue, after all), and Biden, being Biden, said something stupid in an interview.

This is political suicide. Obama took a wembling viewpoint that says, "I want to get back to my core voters, so they don't think I alienated them, but I know once I take a definite side, the right's going to find ANOTHER way to tear me a new one... so, I go with option C" and flips over the chessboard. The worst part is we had people egging him on to make a decision. And once he did, the usual suspects ripped it apart because it's a "war on traditional values" or some crap like that.

It's a no win wedge issue.

Dan Savage

Dan Savage is a problematic figure to me. He mostly does a lot of good. There's a lot he's said that I take issue with too. His recent barbs toward Christianity that took things to a personal level were not right. America's self-professed Christians have always held a majority in this country and non-Christians often feel bullied by them so some of us fire back. This can be done in a thoughtful way or it can be done in a way that could be seen as reverse-bulling. Basically, bullying the bully. It's still not right. Savage apologized for one of his recent incidents, but another one is bound to happen again in this religiously-charged environment. There's an unjust atmosphere that says that I may not have to be a Christian, but I must live by some of its ideology.

Push and push back. I was bullied by those who were bullied themselves. But in that case, it's someone picking on someone "more pathetic" than themselves. Some people just can't handle being bullied and snap at someone else. That's what Dan's doing. it's not right, it's justifiable only psychologically. But then again, to not be a total hypocrite means you have to be a doormat and accept it. I agree... there has to be a less crass way to defend beliefs... but like I said before, both sides want to be martyrs for their cause... and the only one that wins is the one that has the biggest number of laud mouth whiners. All Dan's doing here is giving them MORE fuel to be the very same bullies he REALLY should be speaking up against.

As to the "definition of marriage" -- folks, that's a myth of modern culture. HUNDREDS of early marriages, IN the new-formed "Christian" church, were between two men or two women! Yeshua himself said absolutely nothing on the subject...and blessed the Roman soldier who wanted his "servant" healed. A little research into the standards of the time and culture imply the "servant" was more akin to companion, even lover...and this guy wasn't condemned for it by the man whom a whole religion claims to follow. The whole concept of "One man one woman" is historically VERY recent, and NOT "Biblically based".

Eh...I don't mean to hijack the thread into a study of certain verses which were ONLY SUPPOSED TO APPLY TO THE PRIESTS OF THE TEMPLE millennia back...but yeah. Glad the majority believe in tolerance, whatever their personal dislikes.

How can we call marriage so sacred when... well, the fact it was used to trade cattle for basically sexual favors... but the fact that we have a Kardashian fake a wedding to make a fake TV reality show special, then dump the husband after the checks from the network cleared? How come any stupid straight person can get married for a week, but gay people who actually are a couple can't? And here's another thing... if everyone hates gay's "jumping into bed with one and other" so much, why not just pair them off into an institution that basically represses as much sexual actuvity as possible. Heck... make it mandatory for them to adopt kids. Kids kill any romantic part of a marriage that was left. Couples that can't stand each other stay together for the kids. If anything, marriage (and letting them fight openly in wars) is something the haters should want MORE than the gays.

But above all, the biggest sign that it's becoming so socially acceptable, it's mundane?

Archie comics. The BLANDEST of the bland. The comic that was the only one Frederic Wertham didn't make a hissy fit over. A comic so incredibly wholesome that they have lawyers sue fan fic sights and rock bands to uphold that blandness. Heck, it took them until 2011 to put rock band KISS in their comics. If that's not a sign that it shouldn't be controversial, I don't know what is.

 

[jvcarroll]

I haven't been happy with Obama's history with gay marriage. Still, I can't really fault his meandering stance on this issue since the last guy who had his job used people's irrational fear of gay people to win two elections. I give him points for finally getting on the right side of things. To take a stand that could hurt him rather than continue to play politics with it. I actually think Biden's comment was politically prompted to soften the ground before Obama's statement because the VP has never been one to go-it-alone and spearhead such social issues. Hillary Clinton has a history of being a politically polarizing figure and probably wouldn't help the 2012 ticket. She has a very powerful job right now and Biden's spot is a massive step down from that. She'll run in 4 years.

Oooh, the Kevin Keller Archie comics went largely unnoticed until recently. It's funny. It took one conservative seeing a copy at a TRU years later to stir things up. It's laughable.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I just don't take any of these guys seriously when it comes to having stances. They blow with the wind.

 

[jvcarroll]

Again, I fear anyone who agrees with any politician or religious figure more than 70% of the time because there's not a person on the planet I agree with that much. None of us are perfect and the world won't change pretending that we're apart from or above the process. Saying that they all kind of suck is somewhat true, but completely useless. Ultimately we all need to support the leadership that best represents us.

The thing that bothers me the most about current politics is the recent decision by the Supreme Court to allow more money from corporate interests into the political arena. I have long felt that the Supreme Court justices should have a mandatory retirement age. The calculation of subtracting 5 years from average life expectancy when entering office seems fair to me. That would change the political landscape very much. There's really nothing to keep their ethics in check, unlike the other branches of government.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Ultimately we all need to support the leadership that best represents us.

I agree. But for me, there's none that does, lol.

 

[jvcarroll]

I agree. But for me, there's none that does, lol.

If there's not one that "best" represents you, then there's got to be one that at least "better" represents you. LOL!

 

[CensoredAlso]

If there's not one that "best" represents you, then there's got to be one that at least "better" represents you. LOL!

I wish, that would be nice, lol. ::shrugs::

 

[beaker]

I was raised with the strict belief that homosexuality was this abhorrent lifestyle, a disease and just something very wrong in the particular Christian sect I grew up in.
The "homosexual agenda" spectre was raised a lot. And given the time(coming out of the late 70's and into the 80's) indeed the image was of totally promiscuous New York City gay sex culture and this notion they were trying to indoctrinate kids or something.(of course straight swinger culture was also in full swing)

Flash forward to the 90's, and I realized some of the counselors/teachers/strong and supportive people in my life were lesbians.And some of my favorite actors it turns out were gay.

and then I think it kind of hit me that Gay/Lesbian and transgendered people are just another unique flavor of our colorful American fabric. Just normal, often boring every day people who were born to like a different flavor of icecream than me. Much in the way African Americans contributed such a wide body of amazing priceless work to the arts and cultural fabric of America during the early to latter 20th century, seeing documentaries like The Celluloid Closet made me realize the rich fabric.

I've seen the endless committed love some of these gay and lesbian couples have had...some spanning decades of friendship/romance, and it gives me goosebumps. It's just pure love and respect. It seems like if God exists, he'd be happy to see two people brimming with love in a healthy relationship as opposed to people in angry/bickering relationships or just out sleeping around.

But I also feel Obama's sudden "evolution" feels a bit phony. At least the timing. A couple days after his coming out for gay marriage, his official site debuted a ton of LGBT related merchandise. As well as a lot of smarmy fake liberal commercial messages. I can understand Christian's chagrin at the kind of militant branding going on, as it does feel hollow.

We cannot expect every Jew, Muslim and Christian to overnight have a similar "evolution", nor expect everyone to erase the view of homosexuality as a sin. As unfortunately, to many many people being gay and that identity is tied to sex. Which is unfair, as it's like saying a straight person is all about sex.

So I understand the backlash against the at times militant Christian bashing and in your face name calling...however, I can understand the frustration. Now that it's 2012 and a lot of people realize there's nothing really special or strange about simply being gay if that's how one is, attitudes are changing. And it can be frustrating to see such an aggressive push to ban gay marriage, to strip gay partner benefits, workplace rights, etc. It's terrible, and it's easy to understand people being more aggressive in bashing Christians as a monolithic group. We just often see fire breathed from politicians and the pulpit and have a gut reaction to it.

But man it's difficult to watch that Disney video...even if it was about kids witch freckles or red hair, or speech impedement, it'd be gut churning.

Ok, one more thing...it's natural to want things to move further along, and certainly not backwards like Prop 8 or NC's new law. But compared to so much of the Christian and Islamic world, America has come an incredible way with gay rights. Maybe not to the point of Northern Europe and Israel, but it has come a long way. Just recent polls show the seachange going on.

I think religious faith for those that have it, family, etc will always be an important part of the human story. And Im happy to see gay people being part of that normal every day fabric.