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For Crying Out Loud, What is Wrong With You People?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sgt Floyd, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member


    "Congratulations... your son didn't die of multiple machine gun shots in a vain attempt to slow down the spread of something that we let happen."

    Beaker's right about that... there's something VERY fishy going on vis a vis the drug cartels. Not saying we have to legalize it, but... to defeat a nemesis that only gets stronger through battle, giving up confounds them, causing a huge defeat. We need a way to do that.

    Addiction is addiction in any form, and any form can be just as deadly or destructive. It's not just that Prohibition didn't work, Prohibition created violence and crime and people were STILL drinking.

    Like Fearless Leader in Bullwinkle said "Rules only keep honest people out... if you're a crook, you sneak in anyway."
  2. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I mean what will we say to the addict's families. As in, "I'm sorry your husband/wife has yet again hit your children or stolen your money to get his/her fix again, but we've given up. Good luck!"
  3. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Illegal or legal, they'll continue to do that. We need some sort of legislation that punishes offenses at that level. Blowing a fortune of tax money and wasting so many human lives just so the cartel and the disenchanted youths they recruit (that turn them into violent street thugs) can just increase the price to make up for what they lost doesn't solve the problem. It just makes said addict steal more to afford it.

    But again, Beaker brings up the point I've been making. The US LOVES to say how sanctimonious and super heroic they are on the surface trying to stop drugs, terrorism, etc... but under that cover we make deals WITH the very same countries that bring us this misery. Slave labor from drug mule parts of South America, slave labor form human rights violating countries, oil from the very same nations that want to blow us up... Maybe if we turned out backs on these places, our money doesn't wind up going to support the very thing we throw a crap load of tax payer money to pretend to defeat it.

    I mean, how much money is really saved by printing DVD's in Mexico? It's all just greedy companies tax dodging.
    newsmanfan likes this.
  4. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    The US has always been two faced. It's a 100000% FACT that the CIA trafficked large amounts of cocaine from south America and heroin from Soviet Afghanistan in the early to mid 1980's in order to fund clandestine warfare and operations after the Senate officially cut off funding. Yet, all we heard from Nancy Reagan was "just say no". Many black communities were destroyed because of the CIA helping Nicuraguan drug traffickers filling the streets with cheap crack cocaine, tar heroin, etc.

    The US government says how it "is against the Islamic terrorists and extremists"....REALLY? Well Clinton sure as heck was caught financing and supporting the Taliban in 1996, as well as al Qaeda in Bosnia. And Bush even had the Taliban to the White House and gave them $47 million a few months before 9/11. Even worse, the US government knew Saudi Arabia and elements of the Pakistani Intelligence Services helped orchestrate and finance September 11th...but not only did they cover that up, they then rewarded them with tens of billions and went to war against nations who had nothing to do with 9/11. Oh and then it lied about air quality around ground zero and blocked medical coverage for dying rescue workers.

    Next we saw the US government get hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims maimed and killed in half a dozen conflicts under Bush and Obama...you know, cuz "the terrorists hate our freedom"(even tho its the government stripping our freedom away"

    With drugs...the US governments leaves the border wide open, ignores the ultra violent drug cartels spreading their disease in many US cities, and then blunders up these attempts to help the Mexican government. I understand the need for sting operations, but they go way to far. It's like when the FBI stages fake Islamic terror plots, sometimes they go to far in "sting entrapment" cases.

    But when it comes to drugs...the fact we send non violent drug users to PRISON rather than mandatory drug treatment shows how BACKWARDS and degenerate American society is. No wonder Europe laughs at us(not that they're perfect either)
  5. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    It's more for the sake of innocent people that addicts are put away. Addicts are capable of hurting people in the most devastating and often deadly ways, even if they don't mean to.

    People go into drug treatment centers all the time, over and over again in fact because relapses are very common. So it's not like that's a guarantee either. How long do we keep them there? If we let them leave that means they're back on the streets and at risk of hurting others.
  6. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Addicts are very selfish. Let's put it that way. They clearly don't care that it's illegal, they don't care about the gang violence the incites from disenchanted kids falling into drug dealership... they certainly don't care if it's illegal. Punishing them won't help, rehab only helps a percentage of the time... there are just some people you just can't break through to. That's the sad thing that addiction does. They turn into lost causes ONLY because they refuse to change themselves.

    But overcrowding prisons, tossing a fortune of tax payer money to catch the non-violent addicts while letting gang members off (but it doesn't matter anyway, cause they'll just be a gang in prison and become even more violent when they come out), flubbing up, nay, intentionally flubbing up deflating these cartels and over all making business deals with these countries doesn't solve anything.

    I'm far more concerned about the family members of innocent kids (and I literally mean kids) who get shot up by gang violence than I am about some selfish snots trying to get a cheap high. One town here is completely ravaged by gang violence and no matter what we do, we just can't catch them and break them up. Of course, drugs have only a fraction to do with these cases... but no one should be gunned down for no apparent reason.

    But overall, if we want to defeat the cartels and the Middle East bankrollers, we need outside the box thinking. Come up with alternative fuels so we can stop relying on their oil. Take our jobs back from Mexico at least. China would be very difficult at this point, but that needs to happen too. I swear we need legislation to tax the heck out of these companies, but they'll spend three times that much lobbying to kill that.

    It is a completely rotten apple.
    newsmanfan likes this.
  7. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    You're progressive in some ways...but ye have a long way to go:) Again, I said non violent drug offenders and mandatory extensive drug treatment. Not hey, release everyone and let whatever happens happens.

    I do have a problem with how all these rapist, murderers and pedos keep doing these horrible things after having been parolled or slapped on the wrist. Im a strong believer in the death penalty when guilt has been proven without any doubt, including death sentences for minors.

    But when it comes to people who were caught selling pot, or have an addiction to heroin or whatever...put em through strong rehibilitation...if they continue to not want it, then look into sentencing.
  8. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Um well I'm staunchly against the death penalty and for that many people criticize me for being too progressive. ;)

    What about an accident through drug fueled negligence? Plus you can't guarantee an addict could never become violent (though of course you can't arrest someone before they do something).
  9. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    Yeah I mean Im a total tree hugging liberal, but I dont think America is hardcore enough on inner city criminal gang activity. I dont care what color or nationality they are, I dont care if people think its racist...but these black, hispanic, south east asian and poor white gangs are terrorizing their own people. Not some fantasy Islamic boogeyman in a cave or some 'commie socialist agenda', but criminal thugs who should be locked up or put down. People talk about 'the man', 'they', 'the government'. In a lot of cases its willing male thugs in drug cartels and gangs that make the decision to terrorize whole cities.

    Guiliani cleaned up Time Square, I say screw the liberal Occupy kids and go hardcore with law enforcement or even martial law type checkpoints if that's what it takes. I would have liked to have seen all the money wasted on pointless wars overseas where we didnt belong, and spent to stop the REAL domestic terror threat here in America.

    And China...they got all the 9/11 WTC steel, got all the oil and minerals in our wars, helped arm and fund the Darfur genocide for big fat oil contracts. They hold America to a lot of debt, and make all the crap we spend.

    **** I wouldnt put it past China to finance a terror group to stage an attack and then profit from the ensuing war. China, Saudi Arabia, and even at times Israel...these seem like the real interests the US government bows to. Not the interest of the public
  10. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Yeah Guiliani cleaned up the tourist attraction but the other New York boroughs remain in dire need. Law enforcement does need to be worked on, but the underlying cause of the problem is poverty, which is caused by "the man."

    I'm the kind of progressive that says the death penalty has no place in a civilized country. ;)
  11. newsmanfan

    newsmanfan Well-Known Member

    -----------------------
    Regrettably I have to agree with Beaker. In some cases there IS no rehab, in some cases locking them up for life or killing them are the only recourses to keep others safe. In extreme cases I do support the death penalty -- but it ought to be an absolute, 100% certainty, caught-with-their-DNA-in-the-cookie-jar-by-twenty-sober-witnesses kind of certainty, before we condemn them to death. Too many innocents have been sent to gas chambers or lethal injections. (I also wonder why we use such violent means of execution still...why not an opiate cocktail instead, or something a' la Kevorkian? Heck, hanging was more humane!) It's a tricky line to walk...but honestly I'm disgusted with keeping alive people who have proven over and over they'll only kill, rape, or molest children again (and for me, those are the unholy trinity which warrant the worst possible punishment).

    Other than that, I'd fall on the liberal side of the fence. But I'd be thrilled if we somehow could extinguish violent crimes to the extent that the death penalty was no longer even needed!

    As to wars on other nations' oil...well. Doesn't that say it all? We have BSed the public about so many things...both parties are at fault. Do away COMPLETELY with all kickbacks to corporations, Super PACs (and Frog Bless Stephen Colbert!!), Congressional perks, etc...all politicians should get minimum wage, and a modest place to stay and their basic meals...like anyone else on Welfare! :)

    I heard Obama say he wants to juggle the tax laws to encourage businesses to bring jobs back to the US and discourage companies from moving their manufacturing overseas. Well DUH...I've been saying that for over a decade...it'll never pass, though, not with the current crop of bought-and-paid-fors in the House.

    Oh, how I wish we could have a real revolution here. Why is it people in Syria and even Russia kick our butts at being true conscientious objectors? What the heck happened to this country? Ye gawds I sound like Sam... :attitude:
    ----------------------
  12. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    That's basically what I said, except for the killing part. ;)
  13. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I'll defend to the end my crazy conspiracy theory that gangsta rap is exploited by white music producers to force a stereotype upon people. Not to mention the sheer homophobia that comes out of their violent macho escapades... kids join up with gangs a large percentage of the time because that's the only way they can prove that they're "real Men."

    Really... the only way we can get out of this kind of culture is for someone to give these kids a new perspective on life. We need to change the negative stereotypes that everyone always falls into.

    I'd hate to have a Big Brother state... but if that's what it takes to shut down these violent gangsters and save the lives and futures of little kids, then that's what it takes. Of course, our wonderful Chief Wiggum police force will just use it to go after litterers and petty crimes, and turn a blind eye to all of that anyway.

    Mandatory drug rehab sounds fair. It's roughly the same amount of money we're pooing away sending them to jail, so they can get back on the streets and become even more violent and a little more careful. But if only we can make rehab some sort of aversion therapy that forever scares them away from ever going back... there's gotta be something there.

    But above all, the fact we tell kids that the best way to escape this lifestyle is to go to college and NOT have jobs for them after they graduate is going to send a strong "if you drop out and do drugs, at least you'll have the fun of doing drugs" message. I'd hate to think that terrible things happen to the kids that avoided that lifestyle and managed to survive growing up get no reward for their hard work.
  14. mr3urious

    mr3urious Well-Known Member

    Wasn't this thread about people arguing over the latest gadgets? :confused:
  15. Oscarfan

    Oscarfan Well-Known Member

    Conversations and discussions tend to go like that.
    Muppet fan 123 likes this.
  16. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Gadgets are made in some pretty devious places under horrible conditions... it's not all that disconnected.
  17. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I don't want the government being Big Brother when it's pretty much the reason these poverty stricken areas are that way in the first place, heh.

    Fair but questionably effective in the long term. Relapses are very common.

    That's been a familiar theme for years, that going straight won't pay because the deck is rigged.
  18. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I wish nepotism was punishable by a very public ousting, and blacklisting from any job ever. I don't mean a friend putting in a good word for you, or someone actually helping you... I mean instances where someone favors a friend or family member over those who have the right qualifications or who desperately need that job. r worse... when someone hires their own spoiled idiot kids.

    It's one thing that there are actually TOO many kids going to college with dreams that are way too big... but it's another to tell them to reach for the stars and say "Oh yeah... someone already BOUGHT those stars so their idiot kid can run them into the ground."

    The thing is, we need a LOT more mid-level start up jobs that require a college education but don't require decades of experience that are impossible to get if you can't get hired in the first place. Never once have I seen a start up, fresh out of college job that anyone could enter. Everything requires 2-5 years experience for entry level stuff that SHOULD be a springboard, not a dead end.
    heralde likes this.
  19. newsmanfan

    newsmanfan Well-Known Member

    ---------------
    Not to mention the scads of debt most young people run up in even taking those classes for that ultimately useless degree. I was lucky enough, between scholarships and a small fund my grandfather started for me at birth, that even though I was on the 5-year plan I paid for very little of it out-of-pocket and had zero debts. I'm all for forgiving ALL student debt right now, and radically revising the rules concerning interest rates...as well as going after, with criminal charges, those for-profit-college recruiters (yeah, U of Phx, I'm lookin' at YOU) who bamboozle prospective students with the old "eh, you'll get SUCH a great job with a degree from us that you'll have that 50 grand paid off in NO time!" BS. Some reporter was commenting the other night on the education market being the next bubble about to burst. Oh yeah. And once again, the ignorant and the conned will be the ones left holding the bag of enormous debt.
    --------------
  20. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    The most racist people I know toward the typical inner city ghetto mentality and culture are black people I know. Of course, they're mostly of the nerd/hipster/arty kind and completely distance themselves from all that. My friend Tim says his cousins and even co-workers give him crap, telling him he "acts white"...whatever that is suppose to mean. Heck Im Korean and other than aesthetics there's nothing culturally asian about me.

    Anyhoo, I grew up in the 80's...I miss East Coast fun hip hop. Before the whole gangsta thing. Of course NOW mainstream hip hop moved from the 91-98 gangsta and 98-2005 pimp and bling stuff to a kind of more innocent party sound. But yeah, sadly for MANY inner city black and hispanic males, they are pressured to feel that they have no choice. No hope. Even if they resist that lifestyle and cyclical nature of despair...they may have cousins into it.
    Of course you have a LOT of Western, Eastern, Southwest, Southern and Midwest poorer white neighborhoods chalked full of poor white gang bangers, juggalos, meth heads, etc. Same thing with South East Asian and Russian/Ukrainian areas. It's sad when male youth feel they have no other out

    Anyways, Im not trying to sell a "scary black negro" meme that's been shoved down our throats. What Im doing is deconstructing everything. There is such an absolute beauty to black youth culture in the 10's, 20's, 30's through the 70's. And that's where we see the end of MLK's life and the beginning of this unfortunate cycle. From the CIA introduction of cheaply produced cocaine into inner cities, to the influx of prison impetus street gangs, to forced segregated projects and ghettos years past reaping a nasty cyclical nature. I've studied the American black experience from slave ship to 2012, and I have a hunch a lot of people are waking up. Through education, faith, awareness, etc many black youth are saying no to this mobius strip of despair.

    The US government has spent countless time and money along with the media lapdogs to tell us of this existential "Islamic threat". Well we now know there never was a "radical Muslim threat" to America. All a fear mongering hoax.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46306629/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.TzI_x_lnDOM

    As always, the real threat has always simply been criminals, drug runners, and the like. The solution? I don't know...I guess people being more vigilant?


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