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Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by BobThePizzaBoy, Jan 18, 2012.
After that, I wasn't so sure.
SPOILER ALERT (If you haven't seen the new movie don't continue reading)
Tex Richman changes his ways when he gets hit by the bowling ball.
Well, I think we can count out Darla right off the bat; I swear she's a man in drag.
Anyway, something that nobody's mentioned about Doc Hopper is that he's a villain by what he's asking Kermit to do. By being his mascot, Kemit is an unwilling pawn in the extermination of his race. If you really think about it, it's rather frightening.
Actually even as a kid I found that amusing in a dark sort of way, how Doc Hopper doesn't seem to understand why in the world Kermit would possibly object to this, lol.
I mean at one point he seems to think Kermit's problem with the deal is that his restaurant chain is too small time! Lol.
Bottom line, he's this extreme caricature of the greedy, ambitious businessman where the only sense of honor he understands is money.
Didn't stop Foghorn Leghorn from advertising for KFC!
Good point, I guess Kermit was just a rebel!
Like I said I can't classify Singer as a villain, as what he's doing isn't really evil. Egotistical, sure, but he's doing what he thinks is right. It all comes down to antagonist vs villain. Sometimes the villain is the protagonist, sometimes a good guy is an antagonist.
On that note... I love how the antagonist in MTM isn't even a physical being! It shows that you don't even need a "bad guy" to come in and give the heroes a hard time. It was all about the struggles of trying to make it big. Failure was the antagonist.
Yeah, Doc was far more concerned about getting his own way and winning. It wasn't fueled just by greed, but by his own personal vendetta and achieving what he feels he's entitled to. Somehow, I'd feel Doc would find another singing frog, one with out any scruples that would do anything for money... but he wants THAT specific frog. And it doesn't matter if he wanted Kermit to sell his species out, he wanted to kill Kermit for refusing him. That's a very psychotic true evil. Rachel and Tex would've tossed them out on the street... sure, they'd probably find a way to bounce back in time (in the case of The Muppets, they'd just change their name and start over)... but Doc's killing of Kermit would have stopped the movement right there. So there's a greater instance of urgency. Of course, even cutting out the cut sequence where Tex had a reason for hating the Muppets, he was the only one in the group that actually changed in the end (Bowling Ball injury or not)... both Doc and Rachel stormed off (or in Doc's case, running away), ending up empty handed and getting what they deserve. Tex seems to come out of the movie in the end a nice (though brain traumatized) guy.
Let's not forget Pepe and Long John Silver's.
Like the stuff they served was fish... That chain lasted like a month here.
Plus, they didn't actually have Prawns on the menu... popcorn shrimp, yes, but Pepe clearly doesn't like shrimp.
What's really fascinating is that Doc Hopper has something in common with Kermit: they both have a dream they're desperately pursuing. The only difference is that Kermit realizes that people (or animals) are more important than a dream.
If you don't like her as evil, DON'T see Addams Family Values. She is really nasty in that one, but hilarious at the same time.She attempts to kill Uncle Fester several times.
Oh god, the frog killer guy from the original Muppets movie scared the **** outta me!
I don't think Richman or Hopper were evil so much as they were blinded by self-interest. Long John Silver takes the cake for me. He actually tried to kill Piggy and Kermit, and would have if it weren't for Statler and Waldorf.
Pirates are murderous by trade. They kill their own men when burying treasure as a message to the other crew members. The opening number even points that out, actually... It's all about conquest of a ship and stealing treasure. Even his crew was trying to do him in at some point. However, he is very close with Jim, obviously seeing some pirate potential "you were a lot like me when I was your age" type of deal that makes him a little too endearing to see as a pure evil.
OK, maybe I'll think about each villain out loud then cast my vote:
Doc Hopper - Very evil. Wanted Kermit to make money for his restaurant, hired a professional frog killer, and actually told the frog killer to kill Kermit.
Nicky Holliday - Evil. Got Miss Piggy into jail, tried to steal the Fabulous Baseball Diamond. Didn't try to kill a Muppet though.
Ebenezer Scrooge - Not really evil. He was mean, but then, he became nice. Have to feel bad for Scrooge. Everyone remembers the mean part of him. Sympathizing with the villain doesn't make him very evil.
Long John Silver - Very evil. Almost killed Captain Smallot and Benjamina Gunn, lied, tricked Jim Hawkins into giving him his crutch to take him along to the island for his compass, participated in a sword fight.
Rachael Bitterman - Pretty Evil. Tried to take over the Muppet Theater, even changed the contract to get it. Yet didn't really try to hurt anyone, though.
K. Edgar Singer - Not really that evil but more than Scrooge. Yes, he did take Gonzo, but everyone thought he was crazy, you kind of have to feel bad for him, like Scrooge.
Wiked Witch of the West - Haven't watch MWoO in a while, but I remember her being pretty evil.
Tex Richman - About Rachael Bitterman evil, but not quite. He tried to take over the Muppets in multiple ways. Actually, he and Bitterman are probably about equally evil.
And if no one minds I'll think about some non-mentioned ones on the poll:
Dr. Krassman - Evil. I believe he tried to kill one of the frogs.
Miss Finch - Not evil. Mostly just wanted to help Big Bird.
The Sleeze Brothers - Evil. Trying to make money off of Big Bird
OK, my decision (now that I've thought out loud way too long):
I can't decide between Doc Hopper and Long John Silver, as both tried to kill Muppets, but I'll vote Doc Hopper.
Also if other characters are allowed.
Huxley-Mostly a brat really.
Skesis-Pretty evil. They were mainly trying to stay alive.
Jareth-Not too evil, but somewhat. He threatened Hoggle,but he really did love Sarah I think, and wouldn't harm Toby.
I listened to "the Witch is in the House" a couple days ago, and let's just say, she says some pretty nasty, almost violent things in that song.
Rachel Bitterman, by far, she was the only muppet villian I wanted to rip their eyes out, she was so mean-spirited, oh my gosh.
Doc Hopper, has my vote, I mean he hired a professional frog killer just to put Kermit on the menu, .
No love for Cosmo Scam and the Frackles? The Moopets? J.P. Grosse? Tammy the Witch? She wanted Sweetums to eat Kermit and Robin, for pete sakes. And this was before Doc Hopper was even trying to start a buisness! Also, what about the dude who tried to kill Gonzo's whole family?
No, the best villian the muppets ever faced was teens who went into the theater expecting a lot of action in Most Wanted, and went out complaining it was just a puppet movie.
Separate names with a comma.