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Sesame Workshop Trying To Have It Both Ways(Bert/Ernie issue)

Discussion in 'Sesame Street' started by beaker, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    Right, but I was referring to nutjobs like the late Falwell and West Boro Church. The types that think they had the power of God to cast deathly judgement. I think it was both WBC and Falwell, perhaps even Pat Robertson who said 9/11 was God's punishment for America allowing same sex marriage and abortion. Now Im know fan of abortion, but even if I believed a gay lifestyle was bad just the enormity of those sort of statements is perplexing. But I hate to even bring up these examples, as it's so far out of mainline Western Christianity. I would even say it's unfair for people to keep citing these fringe elements masquerading as so called Christians in order to lay a libel against Christianity. It's the same as people condemning other religions for the words and deeds of a few.
    Bannanasketch and heralde like this.
  2. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    I was raised Jehovah's Witness unfortunately, they call themselves Christians but hate all other Christians and believe anything other than JW teachings is apostasy. The funny part is they don't see Christ as playing any sort of central role to anything, yet they still maintain the Christian tag. With LDS, as explained to me from people who used to be devout, they genuinely believe that Christ had/has sexual relations as per some sort of divine covenant on other planets and that faithful LDS members can hope to join in this celestial tradition. It's so far outside mainline Western Christianity, it boggles the mind. But I mean, people are free to believe what they want.

    Yes, in Uganda, Senegal, Nigeria, Jamaica, Ghana and other black countries it's not only illegal to be gay(even non sexual) but it's often encouraged to hunt down and attack gay and lesbian people. In Jamaica, it's almost become part of pop culture as big time reggae singers and politicians on tv explicitly talk about how they believe gays are subhumans who should be hunted down. In Muslim countries like Iran, they just straight up hang gays and use Islamic law. In Egypt they raid gay meetups and throw people in jail for long periods of time. Saudi Arabia of course has some of the most oppressive anti gay laws in the Muslim world. Israel tho, is rather progressive in gay rights thankfully as well as woman rights. But pretty much, if you're a woman or gay it's not the best situation to be in some of these countries.
    heralde likes this.
  3. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Neither am I. But that's not a contradiction. Obviously when judgment is mentioned they're talking about moral issues. ;)
  4. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    Right...but I must ask, as I do of all Christians I converse with who believe homosexuality is a sin... is it the sexual aspect that gets the spotlight? There's a lot of things written as scripture both new and old testament I recall that noone in the modern world would even bother adhering too. See I get the sleeping around thing.
    A lot of people have this idea that gay people are meeting up at parties and hooking up, and living a very hedonistic permiscuous lifestyle. That would bug me too, as it does when I hear about it in the straight world. I think many people would agree that a life style of sleeping around is bad regardless if one lives life according to scripture or not.

    But I often think...would a loving God truly consider two longterm for life gay or lesbian people as sinners? There's so many mundane, boring, deeply faithful and good gay men and lesbian women who seem like they would be considered exemplary in a gameplan God would want. What sin are they committing, other than petty squabbles and the usual couply things? Meanwhile America's divorce rate is over 50% with straight couples.

    Also what sort of sin are we talking here? I don't believe in sin, other than the bad karma people create by doing harm to others. But if one believes in sin, I wonder where this "homosexual lifestyle"(ie: faithful committed gay couple) is placed.

    Leviticus also says owning slaves is ok, but certain meats are bad to eat. It also says
    sexual relations with your wife around "that time" is punishable from being cut off from family. Also if I remember something about mixing seeds during a crop and mixing different fabrics together.
  5. Sgt Floyd

    Sgt Floyd Well-Known Member

    Hmm...I appear to have accidentally deleted part of the post before that one, hence my contradiction comment (in reference to a non existent comment I thought I posted). Meh...it wasnt important and would have probably taken the wrong way anyway
  6. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    For some people it's not even really about that I think. It's simply just that they've been taught that this is what the Bible says and they don't question it. The Bible doesn't even really explain why homosexuality is wrong. But the attitude is if the Bible says it, end of story.
  7. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    No worries, sorry if there was any misunderstanding. :)
  8. Sgt Floyd

    Sgt Floyd Well-Known Member

    Nah, no misunderstanding, just my computer's oversensitive touch pad. Its always highlighting stuff which I proceed to type over without realizing it. Once I deleted an entire page of a paper from doing that
  9. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Oooo, that's annoying.
  10. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    I just wonder what moral, spiritual or social harm is done between two loving faithful gay or lesbian couples. I mean I get the views on drugs, heavy drinking, s&m, swinging, etc. While Im sure a portion of the gay male population is out there looking for random hookups or casual dating, an even bigger portion of the straight male population engages in that sort of dangerous behavior.

    The issue I see, really the only issue is when one's religious beliefs leak out of the home or church and into the day to day lives and rights of other people. Like when the LDS stepped out of Utah and into California and spent 29 million dollars to ban gay marriage, using all sorts of trickster scare tactics and such. Or as stated when countries have unforgiving anti gay laws because of their beliefs. Otherwise I wouldn't even care, as I believe all people have the right to practice and believe whatever they want.
  11. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    The real problem is lack of education. The Bible is an ancient book from an ancient world and the majority of Christians don't have a clue of the history or context behind it, why it says the things it does and, in this case, why some things may not apply in the modern world. And when Christians do attempt to educate themselves, they're accused of "picking and choosing" or even outright ignoring God's words (ironically these accusations come from both religious and atheist people, lol). But I don't believe God gave us brains by accident. He wants us to ask questions. Think before we believe. Otherwise again, he'd be no better than the Greek gods who just demanded worship because they were powerful.
  12. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    That just burns me up. That's 29 Million they could spend to feed the homeless and help the unfortunate... REAL Christian deeds. These religious organizations that spend a fortune buying our government (The Catholic Church is guilty of this too) SHOULD lose their tax exempt status... of course, like big corporations, they'll wind up spending twice as much defending their lack of tax paying than they would by paying the darn taxes to begin with.

    I hate to be that guy, but I have so many problems with what Mormonism values as beliefs... that whole black people are cursed because they didn't fight some crazy Star Wars battle or something based on notes someone found that only he could see. I really hate the thought of bashing their religion, and I'm not proud for what I have to say, but that Family Guy cutscene is my exact view on that. It is a very faith based movement... everything relies on faith... but I just don't see how a real religious experience doesn't lead us to ask questions and change things to fit a modern lifestyle reasonably. Not to mention the far far end of Mormonisim IS a cult that's extremely hedonistic and full of child molestation. I'm completely fine with sexual orientations, but child molestation is barbaric and monstrous. And it's a sick crime that we keep letting that happen whether its religious figures or kid's coaches (a disturbing epidemic... the Jerry Sandofski trial just brought it to light nationally... seems every day I find out a local coach has child porn on the News).

    I really don't want to paint that religion with a brush at all, and I am deeply ashamed of what I said, but when people believe something others don't and force it into the mainstream like that because they think its saving themselves or something... all in lieu of actual Christian teachings that promote helping people, and wasting all that money to boot... it's just disgusting.
  13. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    The Sandusky story brought to light that this isn't a problem that can only be found in religious institutions, despite the many people who have tried to paint it that way. Any organizations that involve being around children are at risk of hiring the wrong person. Though on the other hand, from what I've read a large number of these cases involve families members, rather than people outside the home. It's very difficult to pin down and therefore quite horrifying.

    Still it's important to point out that these stories get in the news because they are rare (thankfully), not because they are common.
  14. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    The stories of coaches are a little more common than you think. Just not the Sandusky type prestige and press, it's on a far more local level. Why background checks aren't common place to begin with when directly working for kids is beyond me. You get a much more thorough and relentless filter trying to work at a freaking Starbucks than you do being around kids. But it seems, almost bi-monthly (alternating, not twice a month) that I hear of misconduct by a local coach.
  15. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    For some reason it became a pandemic with (more Irish background than Italian Roman background) Catholic institutions. The statistics on Catholic related sex abuse crimes is staggering, even from their own internal investigations. I don't even have a theory as to why it is, but it's interesting as I have come to think of Western Catholics as much more pragmatic, philosophical(and I hate to say) more intelligent when it comes to theosophical interpretation and debates than most post reformation Western Christians...hence, once again showing that the institution doesn't always reflect on the people. I'm against unwarranted written attacks, like people calling Pope Benedict a nazi or saying he knew and covered up all this stuff. There's so many levels it has to reach before it gets to the top of the Vatican, but clearly there had been an unspoken conspiracy of silence for a long time.

    The Sandusky allegations are out of hand, especially the new grand jury findings. The media drove Michael Jackson to suicide pretty much with false allegations, yet we have hardcore examples of this monstrous stuff going on in much more esteemed places.

    It's tough, as I want there to be a very open and trusting society...it sucks to have to raise kids to be paranoid. In the 80's as a child I was dropped off at public places and allowed to wander for hours(my choice) and I loved it. so much has changed.
  16. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Well my theory is the organization is entirely too authoritarian and certain people at the top freaked out about possible scandals instead of doing the right thing to begin with and turning people in.
  17. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Michael Jackson was a special case. I don't think he actually did anything, but something happened once in the 90's, and then greedy turds started sending their kids to Michael Jackson and then they came up with false accusations so they could get the same hush money that one family demanded in the 90's.

    Still, I keep hearing about local coaches and their child porn. There NEEDS to be accountability there.
  18. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    We may never know now but I do think it's at least a possibility that Jackson was just naive, as oppose to criminal. Accusations don't automatically equal guilt and neither does court settlements.
  19. GonzoLeaper

    GonzoLeaper Well-Known Member

    I don't believe The Bible contradicts itself and I don't see any issue of making a loophole. God definitely wants Christians to tell other Christians when they are in sin. And God also calls on Christians to preach the Gospel in all of the world- part of that is pointing out the reason why we all need Jesus as Savior- because we all have done sin. And homosexuality is part of that.
    But I do agree that we don't need to get bogged down on one issue- there are numerous ways that we all fall short of God's glory and His standards. And that is why we need His grace and forgiveness that turns us from scarlet to white as snow.
  20. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    "Judge not, lest you be judged."

    "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye"

    "Let the one among you who is without sin caste the first stone."

    But again how does my being attracted to a man make me a good person?


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