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The Fanfic Research Thread

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction' started by Slackbot, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    Jill in The Muppets Take Manhattan had hair. Whether that was her own or a wig, who can tell?

    (Bill and Gil, of the same trio, also have hair. And Bill has external ears. Has he been doing some evolving on the sly?)
    mostlikemokey likes this.
  2. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    That depends on the character you want to depict. Would recommend you look up the entry for Jill, one of the Madison Avenue Marketing frogs from TMTM at Muppet Wiki for further reference.
  3. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    Silly question time: does anyone here know enough about vocal ranges to tell me if Cantus is a tenor or a baritone? I want to think tenor, but then I listen to Music Makes us Real (Ping!) and think he could be a baritone.
  4. Twisted Tails

    Twisted Tails Well-Known Member

    Wow! That's a tough question! I am guessing Cantus could be baritone, but I am not sure if I am correct.
  5. mostlikemokey

    mostlikemokey Well-Known Member

    I'm guessing tenor, but you can have an overlap in your range… Like me, I'm in the low mezzo soprano to high alto range. For most musicians, your range is more of a guideline then being a pure tenor or baritone. Since Cantus is particularly talented, it wouldn't surprise me if he could extend a little bit beyond his range without hurting his voice, but he seems to be more of a pure tenor to me.

    Wow, I just used a lot of choir jargon. Could anybody tell if I was speaking English?
  6. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    All that made sense to me, but then both of my parents are symphonic musicians, so I grew up with musical jargon. My father even plays the oboe, which is the instrument (synthed) they use for Cantus's's's's Magic Pipe.

    The reason I ask is because I'm writing something in which someone is hearing Cantus sing for the first time. I want to describe it from his point of view, and it's natural to begin with the vocal range. I suppose if he was singing Let Me Be Your Song or Lose Your Heart And It's Found he'd come across as a tenor, but for Ball of Fire or Music Makes Us Real (Ping!) he'd sound more like a baritone.

    Heh, I'm sure Cantus wouldn't name his vocal range. That's so limiting. But, hey, that's how Silly Creatures think.
  7. WebMistressGina

    WebMistressGina Well-Known Member

    Firstly, awesome!

    Though I'm more band than choir, I think it all depends on the song and the range of the range. Like MLM above, I'm usually slated in the alto section, however I have sung tenor and I know basses who can also hit the tenor range. And of course, before puberty, I was in the soprano range, but I digress.

    Don't know the character well enough to state one way or another, but you could probably get away with placing him smack dab in the middle, maybe as a tenor-bass or something.
  8. WebMistressGina

    WebMistressGina Well-Known Member

    So....I have a question.

    :mad: Really.

    Shut it. So, I was finally able to at least see the opening monologue of when Jason Segal hosted SNL and his whole song with the Muppets (which was hilarious, especially after informing them they weren't hosting with him "well when people come to see a Muppet movie, they all go to see it for the humans!"), there was his last line when he says he thinks pigs are sexy and Piggy counters that she's spoken for.

    I can't remember what Kermit says, but it certainly looks like he nods and agrees with the statement. Of course, months later in the Barbara Walters special, he gets all freaked out about marriage.

    Anyway, the question I have is - yes, while they are the power couple and THE official couple, have they officially stated this? And I don't mean over the years, I mean since the 2011 movie. It's obvious now that they have a house together and they certainly seems like they got back together in the movie, but outside of that, has Kermit (or the combination of Kermit and Piggy) officially stated, yeah, we're together?

    I remember hearing he broke down somewhere and admitted that they had been a couple (really? since when?)(<--- sarcasm mode), but I'm still catching up on the pre and post Muppet movie stuff (next movie I am determined to see in theaters, I don't care who comes with) so now it's kinda hearsay-ish and I could also be making this up cause it fits in my universe, which I'm happy with.
  9. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    I've not been able to see every Muppet appearance from the SNL bit in Nov 2011 to now... But I think Kermit's stance has been the same as always, no real definitive statement while still playing to Piggy's affections at times. Would say go ask Aunt Ru via PM conversation as she'd have more knowledge than I on this.
  10. Slackbot

    Slackbot Well-Known Member

    I remember that bit, and that's how it came across to me too.

    It seems to me that Disney is tweaking some things about the Muppets. you no longer ever see the Muppeteers working their characters, or even with the characters, because that would supposedly spoil the illusion. So much for blooper reels, eh? And Disney is all about Happy Endings, which nearly always involve True Love. I get the feeling they're pushing Kermit and Piggy as a real couple rather than an are-they-or-aren't-they situation. That was certainly the case in the Muppets --after Piggy left, Kermit was pining for her in that big old house, taking care of it at least. He indirectly called her the most important person in his life. And they saved that torn photo, which shows with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer that they were destined for each other.

    So, while I don't know if there's been an official statement, I'm sure we're intended to get the impression that they are a couple. I don't believe they're married, though. That'll happen when Disney wants to show an onscreen wedding.
  11. WebMistressGina

    WebMistressGina Well-Known Member

    I think you're right, Slack. That was actually, for me at least, how it was back in the day, kinda like the Muppet version of Moonlighting (which actually came AFTER TMS) and they always end up together at the end.

    I ended up running across...I don't even know what, but it was essentially a Wiki-esque walk over the weekend and I landed on an interesting article that was speaking about the frog and pig. I guess it was written right after the film came out and some book author referenced their relationship in her book, which the article writer quoted.

    Anyway, I happened to agree with her assessment that the frog/pig relationship was actually getting a somewhat adultish treatment, such as you mentioned Kermit's pinning for her. I'm now convinced I read or saw somewhere (Muppet Wiki??) that since the last movie, he's been more, "yeah, that's my girlfriend" on an official front.

    And as you mentioned, it's Disney. When has Disney let us down on the romance angle (didn't Hunchback not have a traditional Disney ending?)?

    You know, speaking of that...I'm actually surprised Disney didn't raise hackles about them living together and not being married. which of course...makes me wonder if there will ever be a fer really really wedding....
  12. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    BTW, found this a few moments ago, it might be of interest to you WebMistressGina (and Muppetfan44 and Ruahnna as well)... Eve Stewart, who was a production designer on Les Miserables, mentioned after her win at the BAFTA's that she's working as a production designer on The Muppets... Again. And the one set scene she's working will take place at the infamous Tower of London where we'll see Miss Piggy getting married.

    Married to whom, and if it's a real marriage are questions for us to speculate on at this time over in the appropriate threads in the Muppet Headlines section but I thought you'd be interested in this development. ;) :mad: :)
  13. WebMistressGina

    WebMistressGina Well-Known Member

    That IS interesting! And an interesting development this is. Question - is she the new production designer on this upcoming sequel? Or has Disney got a third movie in mind/works?
  14. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, as I said after reading it in the toughpigs article, Eve Stewart is the production designer for The Muppets... Again. And there will be this sequence with Piggy's marriage at the Tower of London.
  15. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    I have watched a ton of interviews with frog and pig both pre-publicity and post-movie release, and I do remember Kermit saying, "Oh yes. We're together." Once, I happen to remember that they were holding hands when it was said, and when the audience erupted into cheers and clapping and stuff, then they both nodded and smiled. I also remember them admitting, post- Letters to Santa, I think--that they were a couple. THAT was when Kermit really began to own up to being half of a twosome. Sometimes he still jokes about it--"Well, I have to say that we're together, you know--no, really. I have to. It's in my contract." (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting.) And sometimes it's implied that he is only saying it because Piggy might damage him if he doesn't, but even that has been done sortof gently.

    For a long time (and you could probably track it archeologically from my posts here at MC), Kermit wasn't just, "Well, we date but we're not married." He was downright vicious and insulting--the kind of guy that all the women and most of the smart men avoid at the bar. He treated Piggy with amazing disrespect and implied that is was astonishing to him that anyone would even think that he could be attracted to her. As a long-time (life-long) muppet fan, that was when I called FOUL, because while Kermit had often been a reluctant lover (just like he is a reluctant leader), he owned up to his genuine attraction to Piggy from the first part of The Muppet Show. As early as the Avery Schreiber episode, Kermit is shown to be jealous and possessive of Piggy's attention. This is not to say that he does not entertain serious doubts about the intelligence or safety of such a relationship, but he pursued it doggedly (or froggedly, as the case may be) for a long time.

    And guys--THIS is what makes it interesting--watching Kermit struggle with what his heart (and body) wants, and what his brain and his sense of self-preservation tell him to do. Frog meets Pig and likes her isn't really that interesting. Frog meets Pig and dislikes her is not really that interesting, either. Frog meets Pig and is wildly attracted to her both because she is a zaftig, over the top, glamorous, sexy, unreasonable, demanding diva and in spite of it, is. The fact that Kermit is mortified by the way his, er, urges betray him and by discovering his ushy-gushy (and completely impractical) insides is a story worth seeing.

    When The Muppet Movie was filmed, they were obvious meant to be viewed as a viable couple, and even the off-screen chit-chat from BOTH of them indicates that they could (and sometimes DO) see a future together. It was particularly ingenuous of Kermit to try to sell too opposite points of view at the same time: (1) Only a fool would believe I could ever be attracted to Piggy and (2) You guys in the audience must be fools, because she's the only leading lady I choose and you all buy it.

    Not that it's impossible to make my long answer short, let me reiterate. I cannot (at this moment) quote chapter and verse of when he actually said, "Yes, we're a couple," but you can be darn sure I was looking for it. I can't remember exactly what he said and when he said it, but I know his admission filled me with an amazing sense of relief that order had been restored to the universe.

    If I must, I will dig around this weekend and find the interviews I watched to prove my point, but--as the Spirit of Christmas Present said, I'm usually trustworthy....
    The Count likes this.
  16. WebMistressGina

    WebMistressGina Well-Known Member

    I usually trust your knowledge of pig/frog interactions. I figured at some point you'd know the answer; in fact I'm pretty sure my first thought had been, "I should just ask Ru, she'd know for sure"

    I can't remember, obviously, where I heard/read it, but I do recall that - at least after Muppets 2011 - he was more like, "yeah, we're a couple and have been for a while", which to the rest of us has, "duh. we've known that for years." But it was that SNL with Segel that he just readily agreed (no hedging, no threats, no bodily damage) with Piggy in that she was 'spoken for' and it was him that was speaking for her.

    Which of course is why his interview with Barbara Walters last year kinda made little sense to me, but that could be just the difference between dating the pig and marrying the pig. I mean, I get the reasoning, especially when I'm under the impression that they live in Cali, but maybe it was the way it came off - it was more like, "marriage!? What the hey!?" and not, "psh! I'd LOVE too, but I live in a stupid state that wouldn't recognize it. Dumb right?"

    But that could be just me. I'm sure it's just me.
  17. Ruahnna

    Ruahnna Well-Known Member

    In case anyone hasn't noticed, Kermit's a real slow mover. ;>)

    It's one thing to be irresistibly attracted to Piggy, to want to hear her whisper sweet nothings into his aural organs and smooch him on his froggy lips, but Kermit is well aware of the whole moth-to-the-flame dynamic. He is wary about getting completely entranced and losing the tenuous control he has on...well, everything.

    So he moves forward in stages. Even in The Muppets, when he managed to say so MUCH, he still didn't manage to say everything Piggy wanted to here, but she loves him enough to take what he gives her and make it enough. That's love--the real thing.

    And despite being a slow mover, when Kermit sees that slipping away, he always manages to do what he has to hold on to Piggy. The Muppets showed us what happened the one time he didn't, and it wasn't pretty. Kermit is the glue that holds the group together, and Piggy is the glue that holds Kermit together.

    At the risk of being shamelessly self-referencing (which I really loathe), I will say that part of the fuel all of my stories run on is this very tension. Declaring undying love or getting married doesn't change the nature of the relationship--just the depth of it, so Kermit and Piggy will still struggle over who's the boss, who's calling the shots, who's going to decide what and for whom. That isn't going to change. What does change is the way that they can reach each other both physically and emotionally. So instead of having a knock-down drag-out backstage and both retreating, miserable, to their respective abodes, they can have a knock-down drag-out backstage and then finish it at home. And maybe wake up happy in the morning. Just saying....

    I expect, if the wedding we will see in this new movie is Piggy's and Kermit's, that there will be plenty of fodder for the pig to be an out-of-control diva and for the frog to errupt into arm-warming, dictatorial hysteria, but I'm hoping that it ends with them stuck with each other and snogging away. Yep, yep, yep...sounds like love to me.
  18. WebMistressGina

    WebMistressGina Well-Known Member

    That...is the perfect quote ever, I think.

    And when I had the time to actually think about it, you're absolutely right. Not only do we see it in the last movie, but every movie (major ones, that I have seen). True, TMM was more about everyone as a whole and I seriously think that every person plays their part in Kermit's life. I mean, just look what happened in VMMC - take the frog out of the equation and everything's radically different.

    You know, this thought just occurred to me, like right now - in VMMC, we see what everyone's life is like without Kermit; well, in Muppets 2011, we see what Kermit's life is like without everyone else and you state, Ru, it wasn't pretty. I think the junior novel fills in some of that, which kinda makes it worse, especially considering that everyone moved on, Kermit didn't.

    So I was watching Oprah's Next Chapter yesterday (there was a marathon on OWN) and for some reason, the idea of a big Oprah interview entered my head. However it wasn't the interview that was interesting, it was the fact that my brain said, "I bet you if she ever did a sit down with Kermit and Piggy, they wouldn't be the bickering couple they are on screen" I remember hearing that the Muppets put out the fact that their personas on screen are nothing like who they are off screen (like any celeb, you know?)

    Okay, so there was something interesting to be said here, but I'm exhausted and I seriously don't remember what it was I was even going to say at this point and I think I'm rambling, so I'm taking a nap now.

    Oh, MoMM up now or later or something.
  19. charlietheowl

    charlietheowl Well-Known Member

    Dusting off this thread for a question about Robin: do you guys think he would address Miss Piggy as "Aunt Piggy" or just as Miss Piggy? I'm writing a bit where he talks about something Piggy told him, and I'm not sure what he would refer to Piggy as.
  20. The Count

    The Count Moderator Staff Member

    Various fic authors have used both instances here, so either one you decide to use is okay. :)
    charlietheowl likes this.

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