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Wocka-Wocka... He's at it again!

Discussion in 'Puppet News' started by Was Once Ernie, Jul 9, 2007.

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  1. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    The American. Beacuse then it would be considered IMPORTING copyright infringing materials. The American suddenly shoulders the burden for the infringement.

    The person in Singapore walks free.

    That's how it goes. Sadly.

    -G
  2. So, really, laws aren't always there to deal with the criminals, just ignorant people who don't know any better.
  3. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    None of us are EXPECTED to do a good deed. That's what makes it a good deed.

    And as a matter of fact, here in the US, ther are MANY examples of people policing their own streets (within the extent of the law) to pick up the slack where the policemen can't handle the load. There are neighborhood associations, block clubs, and crime alert groups all over the country in every town in every state.

    Which leads me to the question: When do YOU draw the line? Do you see someone getting hurt or robbed or even murdered and simply turn away and say to yourself "That's a police matter... nothing to do with me. I'm not getting paid to report that"? I hope not.

    The fact of the matter is that the police DEPEND on people of good conscience to report things. That's how it works. That's why the 911 system exists.

    -G
  4. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    Partially true. But justice tries to not punish people strictly for being ignorant. It may not be their fault that they are ignorant.

    But justice DOES try to punish those of criminal intent and WILLFUL ignorance. Often they are one and the same.

    -G
  5. Okay, if you see someone holding up a bank with a shotgun, do you jump in and help out and risk being shot and maybe killed in the process? If so, I think you are rather foolhardy. There are systems put in place to these kind of jobs so we don't have to put ourselves in danger. We can not be expected to take on the role of every law enforcement system that exists. We MUST draw a line. I don't hurt, rob or murder people, therefore I am doing my bit. I don't break the law, I don't cause problems for the police, therefore I am doing my bit. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions. If you have designed or created something, it is your responsiblity to protect it. If you find that someone is being unlawful towards you, you use the enforcement of the law to protect you from it or to bring those who have been unlawful to you to justice. That's why these services have been put in place and why the people who work there get paid.
  6. Of course it is, but that is something that has been created for ease of use. Reporting a copyright violation is a completely different ball game. You can't dial 911 for that.
  7. Apologies, but I have to bow out of this discussion for a while, I have to catch up on some work.
  8. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle New Member

    yes, yes he would still be breaking the law
  9. Telly

    Telly Active Member

    So say Larry builds custom replicas of Muppets. He builds them for himself. He's not breaking the law.
    Larry builds one for me and only charges me enough to make no profit from it. He's breaking the law.
    ^Thants not sinking into my brain as to how that's illegal^

    No need to explain everything again. I've read and re-read. I've had different people tell me different things. It's not a matter I care to actually research either.

    Say the Sue's Grandma Betty is on her deathbed with only days to live and has always wanted a pink ROLEX watch. Rolex doesn't make pink watches. One day Sue's walking down the street and a guy happens to have a knock-off version of ROLEX he's selling that look VERY close to the real thing. Suprise! Suprise! One of them is pink! Should Sue pass just because ROLEX wasn't keen enough to make a pink watch? Will Grandma Betty never get a pink Rolex? Dun Dun DUN!

    I still stick with my "If the mass isn't going to market something, people will eventually get it somewhere. Lawful or not." :crazy:
  10. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    Agreed. And you don't see me tracking down Muppet counterfitters and using my mighty hand of justice to smite them, do you? That's the job of Disney's lawyers and the court system.

    And I would never suggest that you should put yourself in danger to do right... that's a decision for you to make. But how dangerous is it to pick up the phone and inform the police that someone is committing a crime? Especially when you aren't involved and are simply an observer?

    But I can be here, discussing the topic, dispelling myths about IP rights and attempting to inform people so they don't go around thinking that infringing on somebody's intellectual property is a good or admirable thing.

    And, when someone is willfully ignoring the law, I can do a good deed and let the rights holders know they are being infringed upon.

    I agree, if only in a complete isolationist view. What you describe is the absolute minimum a person can do outside of paying their taxes on time and voting. The problem is that you expect everyone to have the same attitude in order for society to function. And we know that just isn't possible. In a perfect world, that plan would work. But we don't live in a perfect world. There are people who purposely prey upon others for personal gain. They aren't just minding their own business. And sadly, the police are not all-seeing. So a certain involvement from the populace is required in order to quell entropy.

    And when you aren't aware of the problem? What then? Tough cookies? You lose because you just aren't vigilant enough? If that were the case throughout human history, and people didn't have a natural tendency to care about and look after each other, we'd never have formed the first tribe and eventually created the society and culture that we now enjoy. That's called The Social Contract and it is a nearly universal constant in human culture.

    In short: No man is an island.

    -G
  11. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    No, but in the case of Disney, they HAVE created Disneyanti-piracy.com ... which might as well be their own 911.

    -G
  12. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    Actually it's illegal in both cases. But the rights-holders have often chosen to ignore personal building versus building to sell. Larry has NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER under the law to make ANY replica of a Muppet. Unless, of course, he's arranged for limited rights through the Rights Holder to do so and that usually involves paying a fee. That's how manufacturers are able to make Elmo stuffed dolls and hand puppets and action figures and toys and books and games without incurring the wrath of the law.

    The law doesn't care if Grandma is dying. Just hard fact. Sue, according to the law, should pass. It is still illegal to manufacture or purchase bootleg items.

    Sue could just as easily buy a real Rolex and paint it pink for dying Granny. It would be legal that way.

    And it will still be illegal. No matter what their attitude is. Sorry to let you down, but law trumps attitude until somebody with an attitude becomes an elected official and changes the law via the system.

    -G
  13. MGov

    MGov New Member

    I still don't understand how anyone on a message board that is dedicated to the love all things Muppet© can make a valid argument that it is okay to knowingly infringe upon the the creativity of Jim Henson, Frank Oz, Michael Frith, Jerry Juhl, Faz Fazakas, Richard Hunt, Dave Goelz, Jerry Nelson, Steve Whitmire and everyone else who has made the Muppets© internationally famous. Any replicas have no intrinsic value without the hard work that these people did. To encourage the illegal replicas belittles the very thing that we all profess to love so much.

    It seems like the people on this board who are most vehemently against the replicas are the ones who have worked and earned a living in creative fields in some capacity. Maybe that gives a different perspective on the subject of intellectual properties.
  14. spcglider

    spcglider Member

    Well put.

    -G
  15. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle New Member

    It does indeed put a different perspective on it,

    I for one wont post pictures on my Original work with out having gone thru the process of protecting them ,and their is work I have done that I wont post unless given permission to do so,

    It makes me very uncomfortable to post my original creations for the world to see, knowing that their are unscrupulous people out their stealing designs and selling that work at a profit.

    it also puts freelance artists like my self in a bad light.

    while I have never built a replica for sale , because this individual is well aware that what he/she is doing is Illegal,and has not revealed who they are. We do not know who they are, and until they are stopped, any one of us who are professional designers and builders could be put under tighter scrutiny by Disney,Sesame Workshop, or who ever else they are stealing from. Which could cost us legitimate jobs.The puppet community is very small, and rumors spread like wildfire.so I certainly would not want my name attached to this person in any way shape or form.

    maybe that's a bit paranoid, but I do feel this individual cast a black shadow on legitimate designers and builders,If only because they are to cowardly to step forward and show the world their face
  16. I had always wondered about that ravagefrackle, if I could build like you I would probably keep all designs secret until they were protected. That's interesting.

    I also found an interesting post on Andrew's site from about a year ago. I like his approach and attitude to the whole thing:
    http://puppetvision.blogspot.com/2006/10/about-selling-replica-puppets.html

    Regarding the cowardly lion, it took me about two minutes to get his info. He lives in apartment G-23. If a guy like me with a laptop and an internet connection can find out his info in two minutes, I think Henson / Disney / Whoever would have done something by now if they were really concerned.
  17. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle New Member

    Apartemnet G-23 aye?

    well how about a name to go with the address,lol
  18. Telly

    Telly Active Member

    I can see in that case where the company was making a profit from what Lucas has created and "making misleading claims about the authenticity and origins of these items" is lawfully wrong.
  19. I'm not going to rat him out. I will leave that to the owner of the copyright...
    Disney.

  20. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle New Member

    i can respect that ,

    be better if just stood up on his own, not sure i would do business with anyone hiding in the shadows.


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