Save the Muppets

[MWoO]

Yeah, that is a good point. Frankly I LIKE these new Statler and Waldorf guys. They seem to be a lot better at being the characters instead of really haming it up like Dave and Steve did a lot. They are really good.

When it comes to changing performers for characters like Statler and Waldorf I think it's actually a good idea. I would not want to see Rizzo be handed over to someone else though or Gonzo or Fozzie and Piggy (cause Eric is so freaking good). Kermit is kind of up in the air for me. I mean Steve had a connection to Jim so I like thei deao f Steve performing Kermit, but his Kermit is just not that great when it comes to the off face warping and the off voice and characterization.

Anyway, if they are just replacing certain performers for certain characers it's not so bad, but if they are oging to have 10 people doing a single character in various places I take issue with it. That is what will hurt the muppets. multiple performers being interchangable, not the switching around of performers for certain characters.

 

[Fragglemuppet]

When I went to sign the petition, it said that the deadline was in 1999. Was this a mistake; is it too late for me to sign?

Thanks,
Kate

 

[OverUnderAround]

It's probably an error on that website.
Have you read the link below completely Kate?
http://forum.muppetcentral.com/showthread.php?t=21620

You do realize that the Muppets themselves are safe right?
I do believe a lot of people are being mislead by the title 'save the Muppets'
when it's actually save a Muppeteer's job.

Where's your allegiance?
To Jim's characters
or to 'A' Muppeteer.

If you select Muppeteer then go ahead and sign the petition.
If on the other hand you believe in a free and open competition that these auditions will bring in great new voices and new puppeteers to continue and improve Jim's legacy by casting new puppeteers that will finally do the true character voices as they were meant to be, then don't sign the petition.
http://forum.muppetcentral.com/showthread.php?p=348516#post348516

 

[Gonzoid247]

I'm uber-confused... are the "classic" muppeteers being replaced? Or is there something else?

Could someone uncornfuze me?

 

[Kynan Barker]

OverUnderAround and MWoO: These auditions and recasts have never been about finding the "best" anyone or anything. Nobody at MHC has ever said that -- the only place that's even been mentioned has been here, at Muppet Central. For whatever reason, that's the spin you two guys are putting on this, but there's never been any suggestion from within MHC that the "new" Statler and Waldorf are supposed to be anything but temporary fill-ins.

I don't know how to say this any clearer: MHC is not auditioning for people who can do the characters "better" than the current performers. They're searching for puppeteers who can do a passable job at a cheaper price.

The other thing you've got wrong, OverUnder, is the idea that it somehow matters whether you like the new performers or not. MHC isn't listening to you. They don't care. The guys doing Statler and Waldorf are doing them because they're cheaper, and they're the same guys doing Dr. Teeth, Animal, Sam and whatever other character MHC sees fit to clone. You don't get to pick and choose. To get Drew's Statler, you're also gonna get his Sam and his Animal. Again, I don't know how to make this any clearer: This is not a quality issue. MHC isn't looking for the best fit, they're looking for the quickest shortcut.

I don't know why you're attempting to twist the debate, OverUnder, but this is neither a question of quality nor a question of loyalty. MHC's plan will result in both good performances and bad; our argument is for character consistency above all.

MWoO: "If they are going to have 10 people doing a single character in various places I take issue with it." That's exactly what they're going to do. How do I know this? Because they've said so. MHC has been very clear that the intention is to have multiple performers playing the same characters in multiple locations. MHC's Martin Baker: "This new group of performers [will] get the secondary jobs. When Kermit needs to appear at the opening of a mall or in a new show at the theme parks."

Gonzoid247: "Are the 'classic' Muppeteers being replaced? Or is there something else?" Yes they are and they already have. Instead of one single performer per character, MHC's plan means you'll never know whether you're getting the real performer or not. Additionally, there's credible information that Dave Goelz and Steve Whitmire were fired by the From The Balcony producers so they could be replaced by Drew and Victor. That's unprecedented in Muppet history, but the precedent is set now: No character can be guaranteed a consistent performer, ever.

 

[GelflingWaldo]

But while we are ALL fans, it breaks down to TWO issues;

1) LOYALTY TO MUPPET CHARACTER-
Should the best performer, even from the recent auditions be hired
who can do the BEST character impersonation & puppeteering job as
Jim originally intended the character to be like.

~OR~

2) LOYALTY TO A MUPPETEER-
Should a fan be blindly loyal to a Muppet performer who has been doing
a fair job filling in for the role he has taken over and support him
regardless, even if a newer performer might do it better.

Time for me to ramble and rant a little... but to answer the question I choose #3

I am loyal to the characters, and I think we need the SaveTheMuppets campaign to do this. I do not want people who just do impersonations of the characters - I want people who are the characters. Dave is Gonzo. Steve is Kermit. Bill is Pepe. Eric is Fozzie. I don't want someone who just sounds like Gonzo, or can talk like Pepe. I want a performer who also brings the soul to Gonzo. And one who thinks like Pepe.

I’m all for auditioning new puppeteers to work with the Muppets (even perform main characters), but I am not for just handing a character to multiple people. If Disney wanted to say “let’s make Drew and Victor (the guys from Movies.com) the new Statler and Waldrof because they are better than Steve and Dave.” that would be better than what is happening. But instead Disney is saying “Drew and Victor will play Statler and Waldorf sometimes, Steve and Dave will do them sometimes, and anyone else we can find can do them too.” How will Statler and Waldorf ever be more than two guys trying to fake what Richard and Jim did? How will they have any depth that way? How will they have any continuity if every-other time you see them it is someone else just faking the character, instead of being the character?

Some argue that the current performers aren’t as close to the original as these replacements. (I’ve heard “The new guys Statler is more like Richard’s than Steve’s” or “This Sam was closer to Frank’s than Eric’s Sam is”). Let's say Disney gets lucky and gets a good puppeteer that could do a good Rowlf the Dog impersonation and could pull it off. Then they should work it out and give Rowlf to that guy full-time then. But that is not what they are doing. They instead give it to him and five other Rowlf impersonators - What they are doing is causing it so that the character will never be able to grow or evolve past an impersonation of Jim's character. Rowlf is now forced to be an impersonation (and since it is impossible for all the puppeteers to be the same, Rowlf will also differ from appearance to appearance). It doesn’t matter how good the Elvis impersonator is, it is still not Elvis. (Also notice how most Elvis impersonator are locked to one time in Elvis' life and a flat, although Elvis himself grew and changed and had depth?)

For the past 15 years Kermit has grown from being an impersonation of Jim to being a character of Steve’s. We've come to except and love the "new" Kermit. Now, there is probably a guy out there that could sound more like Jim’s Kermit, but I don’t want that guy taking Kermit now, because Jim’s version is no longer Kermit. And voice and mannerisms is not a character either. For the past 15 years Steve has given Kermit a new soul. Steve is Kermit. Kermit is Steve. When it comes time to replace Steve (due to age or death) I want a guy who works off where Steve left the character, who works off Steve’s character – not revert back to Jim’s and erase all the growth and evolution Steve brought. I want evolution, an unbroken chain. Jim to Steve, and Steve to whoever. But what Disney wants is Jim to Steve, and now Steve and 5 other guys. Now in order to keep Kermit as Kermit he can’t change, grow, evolve, or really have depth. Kermit is reduced to just acting like Kermit and not being Kermit.

If "Bob Puppeteer" did Rowlf in a little TV spot, and then Bill picked him up and did his Rowlf for the next film, and then "Joe Puppeteer" did his Rowlf for movies.com, and then "John Puppeteer" did his Rowlf for TV guest spot. The character would always be just an approximation and imitation, a principle performer would never be able to harness him and give him a soul again. It would always be "just do your best Jim as Rowlf", not "just do Rowlf". I want the characters to be the characters – not impersonations of characters. (Don't take this the wrong way) but I could care less whose names are on the credits, I just care that the characters are consistent and not just caricatures of past puppeteer's performances - I want them to have souls. It can be done - Steve has given Kermit new life and is not just a Jim impersonator. Eric has done the same with Fozzie and Piggy (I don’t think I would want Frank coming back to perform them in the next movie if he could). After 3 other performers attempted it, Ricky Boyd was able to start doing that with Scooter. I want quality characters, not stale approximations. Sometimes the recasts aren’t right. Weather or not Dave and Steve were the right choice for Statler and Waldorf is another issue entirely. But the way Victor and Drew got the characters and the conditions Disney is using the characters in is wrong. SaveTheMuppets is trying to save the Muppets from multiple performers, and unnecessary and convenience-based recasts.

These people aren't getting the characters because they are the best, they are getting them because they are convenient and “close enough”. The choice to give Dr Teeth to the replacement performer in From The Balcony Episode 9 was not because he as better than Bill at doing an impression of Jim's Dr. Teeth. It was because he was there. That's not how I want my Muppets recast. I don’t want them flip-flopping around from performer to performer (and I don’t know which Dr. Teeth it’ll be)

SaveTheMuppets is looking out for the quality of characters. I care about character and will not be continent with impressions.

 

[Kynan Barker]

SaveTheMuppets is looking out for the quality of characters. I care about character and will not be continent with impressions.

Right on!

 

[Kynan Barker]

"You do realize that the Muppets themselves are safe right?"

That's a matter of opinion.

"If on the other hand you believe in a free and open competition that these auditions will bring in great new voices and ... casting new puppeteers that will finally do the true character voices as they were meant to be"

And that's a flat out lie.

MHC's auditions are to find multiple people to play Muppet characters. Not to improve on the current performers, not to raise the quality of the work, not to cast anybody who can do the true blah blah blah. MHC wants to farm out the work to maximize exposure and profits. And the same process that saw Statler and Waldorf go to performers who some consider adequate also saw Sam the Eagle, Dr. Teeth and Animal go to the dogs.

MHC will hire performers with the bare minimum of skills to pass as a fake Muppet. And the more characters they can 'pass' as, the cheaper and easier for Disney. Some of the performers will be OK, some will be good, and some will be just plain rotten. And you don't get to pick and choose: The same guy who does a passable Waldorf will be doing a lousy Dr. Teeth. Multiply this by every character, divided up among a whole slew of second-tier puppeteers.

MHC thinks audiences will put up with lousy Muppet performances. I say lousy Muppets will turn the audience away. MHC thinks the audience will accept two or three or four different versions of Kermit. I say that will destroy Kermit.

So, yes, in a very real sense, the One Muppet, One Voice campaign is about saving the Muppets.

Kynan
www.savethemuppets.com

(Kate: The default target date for the petitions is 1999. If you don't set a target, that's what's displayed. So no, it's absolutely not too late to sign.)

 

[Juno42]

I really don't mind if the Muppet performers (eventually) get replaced. It's going to have to happen in any case, if the Muppets are going to survive. Do I think Disney should shunt them off now, when they are still able and willing, just to save a buck? Never in this world! I'm really worried about how Disney will treat the characters.

I saw Muppets of Oz (shorthand) and did find it funny, but much less...in a Muppety way, and more like a Disney Channel way. I know there are many good and valid reasons to question the Disney corporate motives as a whole, believe me. But I've been pretty pleased with most of they recent feature movies (If the new Narnia movie turn out well, I will be VERY pleased). They can do excellent work when they want. But Disney Channel is not it. Disney Channel just seems more pop culture than pop culture actually is, if that makes sense. And that's the way they seem to be going with the Muppets, and it fills me with dread! Jerry juhl was concerned about it as well, he mentioned in the last email i got from him.

(Went to his memorial type party Susan held in Caspar yesterday. It was gorgeous! But that'll be for another thread.)

Unfortunately, the only way I can see of correcting the problem is by getting the Muppet Holding Co. back to the Hensons. And the fact that they sold it in the first place tells me that they haven't the means of doing that. Maybe we should hold a fundraiser, buy the thing ourselves, the fans, and give it back. Or then each have a share, like they did with the TV station in UHF! Just a speculation, but doable. I've seen fansites raise quite a bit of bread for assorted causes.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

[BEAR]

Why did they sell the Muppets to Disney in the first place? They need to be run by Brian Henson and the Henson family. If this were the case none of these problems would exist!