Save the Muppets

[OverUnderAround]

OverUnderAround and MWoO: These auditions and recasts have never been about finding the "best" anyone or anything. Nobody at MHC has ever said that -- the only place that's even been mentioned has been here, at Muppet Central. For whatever reason, that's the spin you two guys are putting on this

Well these auditions have been about looking for the best puppeteers/voices they can find for these assignments. As with any job opening, an employer is always looking for the best they can hire.

I don't know how to say this any clearer: MHC is not auditioning for people who can do the characters "better" than the current performers. They're searching for puppeteers who can do a passable job at a cheaper price.

That's correct they are not looking for a better voice, just ones that sound true to the original characters. Cheaper price perhaps, but with Disney in charge every one works cheaper. But if any of these Muppet assignments for the established performers or the occasional muppeteer involve TV or film work, Disney still has to pay either at least union minimum. Entertainers on cruise ships have union minimums too.

The other thing you've got wrong, OverUnder, is the idea that it somehow matters whether you like the new performers or not.

Nope. At least for me all that matters is that the characters are performed true to their original performer.

MHC isn't listening to you. They don't care.

Kynan, let me ask you if I may... why isn't your crusade also against Sesame Workshop? They were at the auditions looking for Bert, Ernie, Grover, etc., whichever occasional muppeteer they hire will be to fill in for Steve and Eric. In my eyes that makes them no different than MHC, yet you don't direct your crusade against them.


I want to mention that I have read others in the past mention that occasional Muppeteers might be at mall openings. I don’t know where that got started. I never heard that myself.

Have Steve, Dave and Bill Baretta ever appeared at things like Mall openings? I don’t recall the established Muppeteers ever appearing at anything so trivial. And personally I can’t see Disney wasting money to send even an occasional Muppeteer to such a lame event. Disney wants maximum exposure. Appearing at local malls is not cost efficient for Disney.

Additionally, there's credible information that Dave Goelz and Steve Whitmire were fired by the From The Balcony producers so they could be replaced by Drew and Victor.

I would not use the word 'fired' since Steve and Dave will still draw their paycheck from Disney in the future. Perhaps some kind of 'management reshuffling of employees' would be more appropriate for what they experienced. To truly be 'fired' you have to be insubordinate to management. I think Steve and Dave will be back eventually.

That's unprecedented in Muppet history, but the precedent is set now: No character can be guaranteed a consistent performer, ever.

Yea, under Disney no one is ever guaranteed anything.

Kynan, over all while we disagree on issues, I’m glad to have participated in a positive point-counterpoint with you.

 

[OverUnderAround]

For the past 15 years Kermit has grown from being an impersonation of Jim to being a character of Steve’s. We've come to except and love the "new" Kermit. Now, there is probably a guy out there that could sound more like Jim’s Kermit, but I don’t want that guy taking Kermit now, because Jim’s version is no longer Kermit. And voice and mannerisms is not a character either. For the past 15 years Steve has given Kermit a new soul. Steve is Kermit. Kermit is Steve. When it comes time to replace Steve (due to age or death) I want a guy who works off where Steve left the character, who works off Steve’s character – not revert back to Jim’s and erase all the growth and evolution Steve brought. I want evolution, an unbroken chain. Jim to Steve, and Steve to whoever.

Hi GelflingWaldo, this was a very nicely written post. My hats off to you.

On the topic above, I see it another way. I think all characterizations have to be based on the original performer always. To at least try and maintain a sense of character consistency. Primarily over the coming years.

If the Muppets are still around in 30 years from now, if those doing the characters aren't true to what the original performer was, then at least to me those wouldn't be the Muppets I loved.

Thanks.

 

[bigbirdfan]

You mean like............In September 2005, the Muppets Holding Company, a subsidiary of the Walt Disney Company, held open auditions to cast "alternate performers" for the ten main Muppet characters, including Kermit the Frog, Miss Piggy, Fozzie Bear and Gonzo.
Disney's plan is to replace the Muppeteers ― artists who have performed these classic characters for decades ― with a production line of part-time puppeteers. It's cheaper and quicker to use young, unknown performers ― they don't ask as many questions or hold things up by insisting that the characters remain consistent.
Already, by October 2005, Disney has replaced Muppet performers Dave Goelz, Steve Whitmire and Bill Barretta on the "Statler and Waldorf From The Balcony" web show at movies.com. The real performers appeared on the first eight episodes ― and then they were yanked off the project for episode 9, and replaced with cheaper substitutes.
Not only is this a bad way to treat your most talented performers, it's also bad for the characters. Jim Henson knew that having a single performer gives each Muppet character a soul. Kermit isn't just a puppet that can pass from hand to hand; he's a character, and he needs to be consistent to be real. When characters have changed hands over the years, it's always been out of necessity, the result of a performer's death or retirement. Kermit passed to Steve Whitmire after Jim died; nobody else has ever performed the character.
If Disney continues down this road, the Muppet characters will become what Henson never wanted them to be ― a box of puppets that can get passed around, a collection of catchphrases that anybody can imitate.
This is a crucial moment in the history of the Muppets. The people in charge of the Muppets are still working on this plan, and there's still time for them to change their minds. They need to hear from you ― the people who grew up with the Muppets, the people who love the characters and want to see them thrive. We need to show them what the audience response will be to an army of Muppet temps.
Tell the Muppets Holding Company that you don't want substitute Muppets. The Muppets should have one performer per character, the way they always have. One Kermit, one Piggy, one Fozzie, and one Gonzo ― One Muppet, One Voice.

 

[a_Mickey_Muppet]

Have Steve, Dave and Bill Baretta ever appeared at things like Mall openings? I don’t recall the established Muppeteers ever appearing at anything so trivial. And personally I can’t see Disney wasting money to send even an occasional Muppeteer to such a lame event. Disney wants maximum exposure. Appearing at local malls is not cost efficient for Disney.


I would not use the word 'fired' since Steve and Dave will still draw their paycheck from Disney in the future. Perhaps some kind of 'management reshuffling of employees' would be more appropriate for what they experienced. To truly be 'fired' you have to be insubordinate to management. I think Steve and Dave will be back eventually.

Yeah I was also at the NYC adutions and I DONT re-call Martin saying any thing about Mall openings!!!

and 2nd OverandUnder IS RIGHT Steve & Dave are not fired there Busy right now with Disney!!!

 

[GelflingWaldo]

[Steve & Dave]are busy right now with Disney!!!

With what?

 

[Luke]

Have Steve, Dave and Bill Baretta ever appeared at things like Mall openings? I don’t recall the established Muppeteers ever appearing at anything so trivial.

I would not use the word 'fired' since Steve and Dave will still draw their paycheck from Disney in the future.

Steve has puppeteered Kermit at various Barnes and Noble Mall bookstores. Dave puppeteered Gonzo for a very obscure web TV show interview which went very well. Kermit has appears quite a bit at various very small charity events which aren't publicised and you hear little about. I'm pretty sure Bill would have done smaller things over time as well. The way things worked before was fine, one good Muppet performance (occasionally at smaller venues) is going to be worth 50 inferior ones because it'd be something special (kinda a rare event) and the crowd goes away happy. Having the Muppets turn up at every mall opening in the country isn't going to help them that much with maximum exposure anyway because compared to even one small TV appearance they wouldn't reach anywhere near the same amount of people.

Steve and Dave .... infact, NO Muppeteer draws their paycheck from Disney OR The Muppet Holding Company. MHC own the Muppets, they do not employ the Muppeteers. The Muppeteers are hired via the Jim Henson Company and paid by them. I'm not sure if this is an exclusive arrangement for the next 3 years (ie - whether MHC HAS to hire puppeteers directly from Henson). If not, and the MHC can choose to go elsewhere then this may really explain why less experienced people like Yerrid and Massey are getting work and these audtions have been held maybe to start training from scratch an independant stable of puppeteers to perform the Muppets. It seems likely because the MHC held the auditions and the Henson involvement seemed quite minimal (ie - they were just consulting, as per their consulting agreement). I'm of the opinion that whether or not they say they are only looking for people to do low key appearances this is only just the start and once those puppeteers have gained a bit of experience they would begin to be given bigger jobs. It does seem obviously financial, trying to cut out the middleman (ie - Henson) and in 3 years when the main Henson/MHC deal is up we could see MHC just ditching the Henson people compltely, not renewing the agreement because they already had their own puppeteers ready in-house and if people like Whitmire, Goelz, Baretta wouldn't sign directly with MHC (probably for less money or inferior terms) they could be out. Yeah its a worse case scenario but it's entirely possible.

 

[Luke]

I have to say reading back most of the posts in these kinda threads I agree pretty much with the whole "Save The Muppets" campaign. I don't rate Yerrid and Masseys performances at all (yet), OR the idea that the Muppets do very low budget stuff as it reflects badly on the characters when they are seen in a major production puppeteered by the real guys. The Movies.com stuff, to me, seems similar to a bunch of inexperienced high school film majors being given the REAL Muppets for a project and then being able to play at being Muppeteers. It's absurd and it doesn't come off. I know Yerrid and Massey are a step above that professionally but they are still very new and these kinda initial performances should kept behind closed doors as "screen tests".

I'm not against people like Yerrid and Massey being hired but i think the auditions should have been more about expanding the Henson group of Muppeteers and finding people to do characters that don't really have assigned Muppeteers already (like S&W, Animal, Rowlf, Dr Teeth) and being given them permanently to grow and develop in the same traditional approach that Dave IS Gonzo and Steve IS Kermit. That was what may be needed, not all this malls and cruise ships stuff thats typically "Disney" just trying to mass market the Muppets and hope something comes off. I'm not even sure these changes are actually needed though because there's not really much evidence that the core Muppeteers are too busy to do these performances - i think "Americas Next Muppet" and "Kermits 50th" shows will possibly go ahead next year but they aren't actually in production with them yet as far as i know and the Christmas thing won't happen now. It does just seem to be a financial thing and them trying to save money.

The answer to this would have been for them to have recorded the whole lot of Movies.com stuff at the same time with the right puppeteers, decent facilities and on a decent budget, maybe tied it in with ABC and aired it as part of a movie review show - trailers are usually released very early but even if they didn't have them they could have just slotted them in later in edit.

Instead of investing in the Muppets heritage and doing it the traditional Henson way (that has worked fine over most of the last 25 years, it just needed a little promotional/marketing push and some finance) they are treating the brand as if it has little shelf life some bubblegum pop singer. Yes we may get some nice merchandise and a couple more shows or appearances but it does seem like the quality and depth of the performances is going to suffer .... that terrible Muppet Wizard Of OZ film and now Movies.com just go to show that. There is so much difference between a Henson made Muppet show and a Disney one, they are cheapening the brand. Putting the "Disney" Muppets out everywhere in the public eye won't help things because it will be obvious to people that they aren't the SAME as the characters they knew and loved and they'll just turn their backs on them like other things that have been remade but just weren't as good as the original. So yeah, One Muppet, One Voice is pretty spot on!

 

[MuppetfraggleEX]

I signed it a few days ago. I agree totally. Obscure Muppets notified me by email, and I forwarded it to all the people I know that would be interested. I am glad to see this here. I want Disney to know how much we love the Muppets, and how important they really are, not just rags. LOL Bad Disney..BAD BAD Disney!!!! Money hungry.....mph mph mph anyway. That is all.

 

[beaker]

@Luke: LOL @ 'should be kept behind closed doors at screen tests'. I agree, I mean supposedly the screentest with the guest Statler and Waldorf was leaked online. They even had a fake Pepe!

It's a rough fan choice. We want a steady serving of Muppet stuff, but then we have to live with the reality that the Diz will try and fob off whoever to play the characters over time.

The principal characters should indeed be tied to their signature performer, but I think we've grown use to some lesser characters having a roladex of varying performers.

I was originally vehemently against the Disney buy...but I don't thijnk we'd have a Fraggle Rock movie and Dark Crystal 2 without it. The fact Fraggle Rock is being brought back into the spotlight should be met with thunderous applause. Still, Muppets under Disney is still kind of weak. They're logo is horrible(JHC ALWAYS had cool Muppet logos), they still don't have an informational Muppet official site(just that flash game site), they continue to bring the Muppets down to these topical non shelflife uninspired projects, and already half the management was apaprently fired. Not good at all.

I kind of would liek to see a slew of new Muppet characters...been awhile since we saw that. Only Jim Henson Hour and to some extent Muppets Tonight brought about that.

Finally, I'm still wondering what it woulda been like if they had gone thru with the Fox edgy prime time show in 2002.

 

[GelflingWaldo]

If a guy like Jude Law can make 6 movies just in the year 2004, I think Steve, Dave, and the others can work it out and handle 4-5 productions in the next 3 years. If you want quality productions, you need quality performers and characters - not just convenient ones. When Jennifer Garner did 2 movies and her TV show Alias (and the talk-show junket 2-3 times) all at the same time they were able to work it out. They did not have to hire a "Jennifer Garner impersonator" to fill in.

In the next 3 years there are a bunch of things coming up. Here is a list of what is know to be in production from 2005-2007 that might use some of the principle Muppeteers:

- The Power of Dark Crystal
- The Fraggle Rock movie
- Kermit's 50th Celebration
- America's Next Muppet
- Sesame Street (3 Seasons)

That is a lot of new stuff going on between 2005-2007, but it does not mean the principle performs won't be able to physically do it all.

Look at twenty years ago (1985-1987), you had a ton more stuff going on, but they were able to handle it all. Here is just a list of the major productions between 1985-1987:
- Labyrinth
- Follow that Bird
- Tale of the Bunny Picnic
- A Muppet Family Christmas
- The Muppets: A Celebration of 30 Years
- The Christmas Toy
- Fraggle Rock (3 Seasons)
- Sesame Street (3 Seasons)
- Muppet Babies (3 Seasons)
- Little Muppet Monsters
- Fraggle Rock Animated
- The Storyteller
- Puppetman (pilot)
- The Muppet Meeting Films
- Jim Henson's International World of Puppetry
- Inside the Labyrinth
- Down at Fraggle Rock
- A dozen or so compilation and play-along home-videos (with newly recorded material)
- and a whole lot more!

All that took place between 1985 and 1987 (and look at 1983, 1984, 1988, and 1989 - they were just as busy). But they didn't need replacement Muppeteers to handle the load. Yes, more people were hired and joined Henson during that time, but Jim was always Kermit, and Dave was always Gonzo, and Steve was always Wembley, Frank was always Grover.... It can be done. This is not a matter of bad schedules and time-tables - this is a matter of trying to milk the Muppets for all they are worth and save a few bucks (while cheapening the characters).