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Goths, Punks, Freaks, and Muppets - Is it all Very Wrong?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Cantus Rock, Aug 11, 2002.

  1. FellowWLover

    FellowWLover Member


    Since it seems like one of the posts which made you feel berated was mine, I would just like to point out that I actually sympathized with you in the beginning of this thread, and also defended your right to speak your mind.

    I am not totally sure how I feel about the "goth" community, since I really don't know anyone who claims to be "goth", however, I thought your thread topic was interesting, and was happy to see it develop. I really never thought it got out of hand... until that last post there, where you called someone here "too young and stupid". Seems ironic that you appear to have ruined your own thread, and just when it was going so well, too!

    I say, on with the cultural debate... minus the personal attacks of course!
  2. kansasteen14

    kansasteen14 New Member

    okwell I am just going to stop because how can you call me stupid you have never met me and where did it say I was 14 just because it says that in my name means nada.and I am NOT a stupid person and am actual very gifted ask anyone I know.and I am sure everyone can care less for you and I will stop personal attacks but I cant get kicked off this board anymore than you(actually you could more probably) but if ur 17 how could you be that much smarter than me?
  3. FellowWLover

    FellowWLover Member

    Hey Satori and Cory (that is "Beaker" for those who don't know),

    Did one of you refer to that documentary about the "Club Kid Murder"? (I forget the guy's name right now... think it was Michael something. Does someone here know?) I have seen most of that on TV a few times, and have to admit that I found the whole thing fascinating.

    Now for my question...

    Was the "club kid scene" accurately portrayed there? What is your take on the coverage of that story and situation in general? How do you think the "club kid" bit is different from, say, the whole (original) Studio 54 hype? And when we are talking club kids, we don't really mean "goth" do we? (The only "goths" I ever knew were really just teens with too much time on their hands and a penchant for black hair dye... but remember folks, I am in my thirties.) And did the MTV expose on goth lifestyle do it justice? (haha)
  4. Cantus Rock

    Cantus Rock New Member

    Excuse me FellowWLover, but did he not disrespect me 3 times before I posted what I did? I even editted my first post and APOLOGIZED to him about being to harsh, and your telling me I'm wrong?

    Now, Kansasteen, when I said what I said about your age, I was moreso commenting on your mindstate. Yes, I'm 17, but if you've read any of my threads, you will see I am a very aticulate and intellectually tactful person who is well spoken and in no way a typical 17-year-old. Even Cory stated in one thread that I spoke very well. Its not about being "smart," its about carrying yourself properly in your posts, which I do. Now, I did not provoke you sir, I responded to the snied remarks you made towards me prior to my posts. I even (as previously stated) Apologized to you for being too harsh in my first post about you, and you have the nerve to say degrading words after that? I think I deserve an apology from you sir. I have shown nothing but respect, and you have been hurtful nearly any time. If you'd just admit you were wrong and apologize I'd love to just drop it.

    It seems that I just can't do anything right around here. I apologize, and still get walked on.

  5. Natalie

    Natalie New Member

    hey Matt, get on aim, i need someone to talk to now, i'm bored
  6. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Are you talking about that A&E special on the club kid murder? Woah, creepy. It accurately portrayed one segment of the scene. It went a little overboard equating the lifestyle to murder, but that was just humorous sensationalism than anything offensive.

    However, it does demonstrate the evils of substance abuse. Few abusers actually kill people, but that played a major factor in the crime IMHO. The report exposed that eventually the lights come on and what's left hanging around isn't always pretty because it can actually be very lonely for those who live for clubbing. I actually enjoyed the piece. It was just about as accurate as any news story.

    Now, the MTV specials are truly laughable. The Goths I knew wouldn't appear on that channel if their lives depended on it. LOL!

    Goths are not necessarily club kids, but they do go out - just to different places. Part of it is really "see and be seen". I walked the line between Goth and club kid so I never really subscribed to either group.
  7. Natalie

    Natalie New Member

    (sigh) whatever, no one ever wants to talk to me
  8. Billy's Girl

    Billy's Girl New Member

    I'll talk to you!!! I just haven't posted here because I don't like getting drawn into arguments!!!

    So......Hi Ngirl23!! Hope you are having a good day!! :) :) :)
  9. FellowWLover

    FellowWLover Member

    Yeah that is one! I really thought it was well-done, but then again, I don't realy know anything about the club kid scene, so it could have been all phooey and what would I know? I didn't think that it was too heavy-handed on the drugs=murder thing, I mean that is what happened in that case... even the people involved admitted to that. I sincerely doubt he would have ever murdered anyone had he not been literally out of his mind due to drug usage. Kids.... don't try this at home.
  10. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Very true. It was a good report. I absolutely love A&E documentaries!
  11. FellowWLover

    FellowWLover Member

  12. ClubCreatures

    ClubCreatures New Member

    Party Monster, A&E, and E True Hollywood

    Hey :)

    Yeah, we're talking about the same thing. Michael Alig was the name you were fishing for... The film we were in is the feature film version of the same story. It is being directed by the same guys who did the original documentary.

    We never knew him, as we were in college in Ohio when it was all happening in NYC... From everyone that we've talked to who was involved in the scene up there, they say that Party Monster, the A&E special and the E! True Hollywood special are all pretty on base for Michael's world at the time. They also say that he got too much credit for creating the scene, and not enough credit for screwing up NYC nightlife for everyone else.After he killed Angel, the local government cracked down on nightclubs for every little violation (like not having "No Smoking" signs in the bathroom)

    Michael's behavior was not the behavior of most of the Clubkids. He was not really right to begin with, and then was too messed up on drugs most of the time to function correctly. Most of the original clubkids are in their late 30's now and are leading successful lives. Richie Rich has his own clothing label "Heathertte." Worn by most of the current Rock, Rap and Pop stars. Kabuki is doing all the makeup for big shows like "Sex in the City" Most are fashion designers now. A lot of them had some hand in the new movie.

  13. FellowWLover

    FellowWLover Member

    Re: Party Monster, A&E, and E True Hollywood

    Ohh very interesting! Have you read the book it was based on?


    I shall have to check it out. I was not aware of an E! True Hollywood Story on this subject, but will definately look for that too. I never miss an expose... haha.

    It is funny to me that the Clubkids are all about my age now (well a tad older.) And also interesting to learn that most have made use and profit from their "mispent youth" (no no no I am not judging it). When does the movie you were in come out? And also, what about my Goth vs. Clubkid question? Didn't you know that once you checked into MC you were never allowed to leave?

  14. frogboy4

    frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Ah, so there's a legit documentary too, not just a television one. I'll have to check it out.
  15. ClubCreatures

    ClubCreatures New Member

    Disco Bloodbath & James St. James + The last 20 years in Clubland :)

    The book "Disco Bloodbath" is shockingly funny. James is an absolute nut.

    We met him in LA at a club called "Club Cherry" Labor Day weekend in 2000.

    He came up to us, and we were wearing the exact same costumes that we are wearing on our front page. He was wearing a really nice suit, head shaved shiny bald. He walk up to Zazoo and started playing with the robots:

    James: "Are these DIGIMON!?!"

    Zazoo: "They're Beetleborgs. Somewhere between Transformers and Digimon."

    James Squeals with glee and then introduces himself (like we didn't know)
    introductions and talk of the book.

    Satori: We have a website, we'd love for you to check out. Hands James a card.

    James: "Oh thank you!" Promptly sticks in halfway in his mouth making kissy fish faces.

    James: "Oh I want to introduce you the the founding editor of Details..."

    Goes on from there... But that was our encounter with the author. The whole book is like that. Bizarre disjointed stories worked into a very darkly humorous read.

    Now picture Seth Green doing the same types of things. He was hysterical. Never broke character even between takes. He kept the energy up at all times. Great Actor.

    Hmm... on the whole "Goth" question. It's alot like the discussion earlier on the "Punk" movement... It really shouldn't even be around.

    If you REALLY look at it, the real "Gothic" movement was at it's height in '83-'84 with people listening to darker edgier music than your typical "New Wave."

    Then rap influenced dance music when young black DJs in Detroit and Chicago started getting into the electronic rhythms of "Kraftwerk." "House" was born. There was also a popular street music now called "Electro" or "Electrofunk" that was the original soundtrack for Breakdancing.

    Not long after, Electronic based music split in Europe into two or more fractions. You had your lighter "Techno" and heavier "Industrial" a lot of the people into "Gothic" music transitioned into "Industrial."

    "Techno" fractioned off into all of the Electronic genres that exist today. "Trance", "Drum & Bass", "Happy Hardcore", "Electronica" etc. etc. etc.
    It's now kinda come full circle and their's a "New" genre that they are calling "Electroclash" that sounds a lot like really early "Electro" mixed with "New Wave" and a dab of "Punk" sensibilities. It's really kind of a backlash against the staleness of "House" and "Trance."

    "House" continued and continues to evolve (I don't really like the state it's in but that's me)

    IMHO, Industrial stopped evolving. There are a handful of groups that are putting out some good stuff, but I wouldn't say they are advancing the genre much. The newest that's come to our attention is "Dedsy." They are doing it right. We've gone to a few "Gothic and Industrial" clubs that seem to be playing some really good music. But the majority of it is no older than 1995-1996. The very best club of this type that we went to is called "Velvet Underground" on Queen street in Toronto.

    One of our favorite clubs is called "Exit" up in Chicago. I guess you would consider it a "Gothic & Industrial" club. If we go out there, we usually choose to wear something less inspired by Henson, and say more inspired by Clive Barker. When we walk into "Exit" it is an immediate time-warp back to 1989-90 when we first were going out to a club called "Clubhaus" in Cincinnati. It's really just a big retro experience. More like "ah the music of our youth"

    Hmmm... So if you've made it this far, you must be REALLY interested (LOL)

    "The Club Kids" didn't really fit into a nationwide movement per se. They were a small group of people club owners, promoters and DJs who created a circus like atmosphere. In their clubs. It started in NYC and they took in on the road to the larger clubs in larger cities. It was a Regan-era marketing ploy in Clubland. They did it for #1 the money #2 the power #3 the creativity. In that order.

    I 100% agree with earlier statements made by individuals about individualism being branded and processed now. Hot Topic is the perfect example. When we were dressing that way in the late '80s it was already outdated. We didn't really feel that we fit in to the mainstream and we chose that direction to express ourselves. We had to hunt and hunt for the clothes that made the look. We had to wait for the shipment of Doc Martins to come in from NYC. We had to put things together from stuff we found at thrift shops and then customize them. You had to hunt the entire city for dye to change your hair to an unnatural color. Now you just go to 1 of 4 shops in the mall, and they already have the clothes in 5 sizes with the safety pins already evenly machine placed for you. I don't really get it. I don't really understand why it's still around. I don't really understand why kids think that it still holds any ring of individualism. And what I REALLY don't understand is why Adults think it's shocking anymore.

    Mainstream American culture is SO fragmented right now. It's also so pre-produced and packaged. It's no wonder that kids aren't creating something new.

    Japanese kids are creating the most wonderful clothes right now. There is a segment of students that customize all their own clothes. They use combinations of new and vintage clothes and create a whole new look. It turns into fashion for fashion's sake. I'm hoping that American kids catch on to this.

    A great book to see this is called "Fruits" it is put out by Phaidon (ISBN: 0 7148 4083 1)

    Oh... look at me. Telling the longest story for the shortest question. (LOL)

  16. FellowWLover

    FellowWLover Member

    Re: Disco Bloodbath & James St. James + The last 20 years in Clubland :)

    What shouldn't be around... the discussion or the movement? (haha) Thanks for the history; you are just about the most interesting person to join our little forum in quite some time, I must say.

    I think I must have confused "goth" with some sort of neo-nazi group. Now I think I understand what we are talking about here. And funny enough, yes Virginia, I am old enough to have known some of that original goth music. Never was much for techno though... after awhile it makes my teeth grind (or that could... never mind... discussion for another forum I think).

    Funny that bit you mentioned about the background music for break dancing. Guess that might be a little different from whatever those kids at my 8th grade dances would play as they flipped on the lights and demanded, "Let's break!" I have been very interested in the development of hip hop music lately, and it likewise fascinates me to see how these things dovetail.

    As for fashion, it might grieve you to know that many of the kids at the local Catholic school (where I am the Art teacher) wear Doc Martins with their uniforms. *smiles* It always amuses me. I think back to my tenth grade boyfriend and how he hunted for those d$mn things high and low... oh how times change.
  17. Ernie101

    Ernie101 Active Member

    I think you should stop fighitng we are here to have fun! If you choose to be immature about this you both should settle this somewhere else.Or you can now simply drop this and catus never tell people to stop talking on a thread you started.I am not taking sides im just saying this is very immature and should not be tolerated by phillip or any other mods
  18. wockawocka

    wockawocka New Member

    I agree with my sister (ngirl23) way back in the posts. I would like to see more shirts with all the muppets or less famous ones. Right now, Ionly have one Kermit shirt and seven day muppet underwear, lol, but I'm gonna get a baby Kermy shirt! I really don't like non muppet fans buying clothes like that because that leaves less for the muppet fans!
  19. Ernie101

    Ernie101 Active Member

    WockaWocka they usually do it as a mock buying the stuff as in non sponge bob fans buying mock shirts.
  20. Joggy

    Joggy Member

    It's too bad, but it's the facts... We have hundreds of different people here and with every discussion there are people who feel left out because people don't agree with their statements. There's always people who don't know how to have a good discussion and therefore start throwing personal attacks. Not because this is "that wicked always fighting MC boohoo boohoo", but because of human nature, I guess. I really feel sorry for everyone who got out of this discussion with a bad taste in their mouths.

    To get back on the subject: I agree with Jackie and Pete and everyone else who says, peoples is peoples.

    It's not like you can say: "You are not allowed to love Muppets" to everyone who lives in different ways than you do. "Stay away from the Muppets! You are a bad kid (translation: you are different) so you're not allowed to have Kermit on your shirt!" I thought differences was what Henson is all about.

    When I see a highly objective band with an agressive drummer wearing an Animal shirt, I don't think: "Ooh, poor Jim Henson, poor Muppets. They're attracting bad people. How awful." No, I think "This person liked Henson's work and he's showing it off. That's cool!" I mean, the guy walked around in a store saying: "Hey, that's that cool drummer from the old Muppet Show!" How can you say no to that?

    I do object to use of Muppets in sexual or other objective practices. That's what series like South Park are for. Like Jes said, it might confuse or scare the younger fans.

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