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Discussion in 'Classic Muppets' started by muppet_fan_1, Apr 29, 2002.
LOL, Miss Piggy as the Little Mermiad?
I really hope they don't keep remaking fairytales. Leave that to Disney, the Muppets are too creative to make that a habit.
Jamie: Good point about the "get down with your bad selves" line. That was truly cringeworthy. You reminded me of something else I disliked about Space -- the inexplicably entirely retro '70s soundtrack. That, in essence, made the film sound dated before it was released. I'd rather have a traditional musical from them or no music at all than a rock soundtrack that screamed, "We're a nostalgia act!" I'm not big on '70s nostalgia anyway; I grew up during the '80s, so that's my passion. Both Caper and Space have that '70s feel to them (though in Space's case it makes no sense). Even TMM has it to some degree, but there's enough of the timeless quality of the Muppets for me to still love it. At any rate, even if I loved '70s nostalgia, I still don't think it was an appropriate direction for Space.
Ahem. Oh, wait. I'm supposed to be defending my choice of Space over Caper, aren't I? ;-)
I certainly don't mean to imply that just because something is new that it's better. One only need compare Phantom Menace to the classic Star Wars films to see that's not true! I guess I wasn't overwhelmed by either Caper or Space, and my over-familiarity with Caper inclines me to want to watch Space more. If all things were equal -- if Space had been made during Jim's heyday, or if Caper had been made recently -- I suppose Caper would edge out Space.
I know what you mean about the spark missing in Space. I think they've been having trouble finding their rhythm again since the loss of crucial people, and the addition of new performers (which is a good thing and would have happened anyway) also has made the transition period challenging. They have to find their groove again -- or, more to the point, they have to find a new groove for the new mixture of people.
However, I felt the spark was still very much evident in TMTM. I can *completely* understand why many would choose Caper above Space, but I am surprised that so many choose Caper over Manhattan, which in my mind is a more "pure" Muppet film, if you will.
Admittedly, Piggy's '80s perm does look weird now. But sometimes people seem to forget that just about everything goes out of style eventually. They look at old pictures of themselves and say, "What was I thinking?" not realizing that they'll be saying the same thing about what they're wearing now in 20 years. Since, unlike the timeless look of Kermit or Fozzie, Piggy HAS to look as contemporary as possible, I guess we'll just have to deal with these "hiccups" in taste. I agree that her original hairdo is still the best.
I know what you mean about Fozzie going pyscho. I even mentioned that in reference to MTI. However, I wouldn't say it happened immediately after Manhattan. Fozzie was still in top form, I think, in the rest of the projects immediately up through Jim's death (MFC, the Disney World special, MuppetVision 3D, and Muppets Celebrate Jim Henson, etc.). The changeover really started to take place in MCC -- though not quite insane in that one, he does begin his practice of wearing wigs which he'll do for most of the '90s. However, while Fozzie was still not quite himself in MFS, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's still the nutcase he was in other productions.
Foz: Hey! I liked Ninja Turtles! The early incarnations, at least.
Miss Piggy does need to get her neck back so she can move her head around properly. Poor pig. (There's an uncomfirmed rumor that she's getting a "facelift" for MF2.)
Beau: I don't mind them doing popular stories and fairy tales so much -- but they should do them as TV-movies at times when there's high output from them. When you're going three-and-a-half years in between any new Muppet output, it hurts to have them just pretending to be someone else.
I agree with you about sectioning off the remakes of literature etc to television projects. It really is irritating to wait years between Muppet films then watch them do yet another version of Chistmas Carol or Treaure Island. It's a waste of a perfectly good oportunity when they could do something more creative. Leave the remakes for TV.
I don't think Caper has a 70s feel at all. It is very much an early eighties feel to me. I didn't see many funky 70s moments.?
I put TMTM in fourth (sometimes third) position in my list. My faves are pretty much in descending order - the best projects in series always seem to come first. Manhattan just seemed less exciting than many of the other films. The characters weren't going anywhere in particular. A couple of pseudo chases (don't get me started on the low quality Piggy chase scene). It just always seemed low-rent to me when compared to the rest of the films. Even MFS seems to have higher production values. It just looked slapped together to me. Just my opinion. To paraphrase the frog - it felt that there was something missing.
One other thing to consider...
Who directed MTI and MCC and MFS? I think MFS was lacking somewhat because of the director. Not very creative in my opinion, after all, did you see the commentary on the DVD? He doesn't say anything hardly, and what he says isn't funny at all. It's all Gonzo (who speaks once in a while) and Rizzo, who is HILARIOUS to me in the commentary. Yep, I think we have to look toward the directors.
I do agree, that with all the years between productions, having the characters perform other characters could confuse new fans, ie the Muppet Babies problem.
I forgot what I said about the TMNT, but I'm glad you liked them. I have a pet turtle named Humphrey. He's a box turtle.
I didn't think anyone was funny in the commentary. Rizzo is beginning to grate on my nerves these days as he is over-exposed. I kept wanting Kermit to come back! I found the commentary to be skillfully executed, but there was no substance to it.
Brian Henson, of course, directed MCC and MTI and several people including Hill and Brian reportedly directed MFS. It looks like there was really a mess in the production that nobody could clean up. I really think they should find another director besides Brian or Hill for the new projects. I'm sure there are plenty of people that would love working on a Muppet film.
In the end, I don't think anything could have saved MFS. The problem seemed to be on paper before they started shooting and carried through the production as things kept getting changed.
MFS is the funniest thing they've done in a long time.
"I'm going to spank you like a bad, bad donkey, okay?"
Need I say more?
I don't think an outside director is needed. Brian knows Muppets. I think he's the man for the job...it's just a shame that he wasn't director of MFS...maybe it would have been better...
Actually maybe it's good that he didn't direct MFS...then I disassoicte him from MFS...
I disagree. Brian has already directed two of the films and hasn't had much box office success. He reportedly had a lot of influence in MFS too. I think he should stick to producing and puppeteering. That's just my view. There needs to be some new fresh life breathed into the Muppets and I think a new director teamed with Jerry Juhl's writing could do the trick.
I guess part of the diagreement is stemmed from the fact that I found MCC was brillant while you did not...
I do agree with you that Jerry Juhl is a must.
Okay, I guess you throw the term " brillant" around too easily. I can understand that some people enjoyed the film, but calling if brillant is going a little bit overboard in my opinion. Citizen Kane is brilliant, MCC is a film you enjoyed very much. But I guess in the end it is all relative. I just don't see how a remake of a remake of a remake starring the Muppets as backround characters is flawless or brillant.
It was considered a box office disappointment and that really matters in today's climate if the Muppets are to make a successful comeback. As for Brian Henson's involvement in MFS - he was the producer - aka the moneyman - few decisions made in films escape the producer so Muppets From Space's failing is in part due to the producer too.
Just my thoughts
Okay, okay, okay. Shawshank Repemption is brillant. Forrest Gump is brillant imo. MCC was, yes, a film that I enjoyed VERY much.
LMAO. It was just an observation. I admit to using the term liberally too sometimes
The Dark Crystal is brilliant in my opinion.
I think it's time for FRANK to come back to his roots, don't ya know? eh?
Sadly it doesn't look likely these days with all the talk of replacing his characters.
You know I've never seen the Dark Crystal...perhaps I should get around to doing so...
Eeeek! You are kidding me. Drop everything, go to the store and pick up the DVD. It is considered by many as Jim Henson's best film. Just beautiful, and unlike anything that had come before it.
Now THAT'S exaggeration, Jamie! ;-) Brilliant from a technical standpoint, maybe, but I've always found Dark Crystal to be unbearably dull.
Guess everyone's got different definitions of "brilliant."
Oh, I completely disagree. Brilliant is warranted in that case.
Well, last I saw it was when I was a little kid, but I still recognized it then as a totally original concept for a movie, fantasy or otherwise. I should watch it again.
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