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Jim Hensons Funeral

Discussion in 'Buy, Sell and Trade' started by Frogpuppeteer, Feb 23, 2006.

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  1. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    I've been trying to get a copy for myself, and even though I am one who NEVER goes to funerals, I don't find this "goulish" at all. (Personally, I think the TV show "Fanily Plots" is MUCH more goulish.) It's a MEMORIAL NOT A FUNERAL! Now if it was footage of Jim's body actually being cremated, I think that all of us here would all want that banned outlawed. I think the question should be whether or not anyone is actually making money off this. If the disks are being sold at cost, or for trade only, then it is simply sharing memories. (Please contact me if you have such.)

    I can't speak for the company or the family's feelings on this, but the memorial was public, press and all, and the funeral itself was totally private. Clips of the memorial have been used in various documentaries, and I'm sure everyone knows how much Jim meant to us and except the fact that his being a public figure creates interest and demand. While I'm sure they would brefer it not be an issue, they are not issuing an "official" DVD version so as not to totally exploit the man and his memory. Both sides are staying out of the contriversy by allowing the true fans to get hold of a copy without prosicution, but not supporting or encouraging licensing control over it either.

    I want a copy since it is the closing chapter in the life of Jim Henson and without it, it's like a book that is missing the last few pages. A memorial service such as this gives us all a chance to remember Jim, thank him and say goodbye.
  2. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle Well-Known Member

    You do all see that you are trying to justify something that the family did not authorize,and does not want out ,arguing the semantics, FUneral service or Memeorial, does not change the fact that this video was never meant to be in your hands, and some one is profitting of it, that does not in any way shape or form make it right

    its interesting were some people will draw the line,
  3. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    If it was never meant to be seen then the press and general public would not have been invited and clips and quotes of such would never have been made available. (There was a very private gettogether at the Muppet Mansion just for family, friends and co-workers. This is NOT part of that, and not meant for public consumption.)

    By comparison, there was NEVER anything not so much as a photograph from Walt Disney's burial released to anyone, and that family and company would never allow such. Fans ond others capitalizing on that would be creating product at family and fan's emotions, thereby true exploitation. I don't like the idea of anyone making money from this, but sharing at no cost what is already public record is not exploitation, any more than putting together a "tribute" or "fan club" website showcasing the work of others, so long as it is presented free of charge.
  4. Muppet Matt

    Muppet Matt Well-Known Member

    then is it all right to make copys to send to MCers for free?:):o
  5. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle Well-Known Member

    If it was never meant to be seen then the press and general public would not have been invited and clips and quotes of such would never have been made available. (There was a very private gettogether at the Muppet Mansion just for family, friends and co-workers. This is NOT part of that, and not meant for public consumption.)

    yes , of course press was invited this was headline news, at a far different time than when Disney died, with cble news channels and medai beiging to take a firm grasp of the telivised media,

    the point here is that the Video of the service was not meant to be realeased, the tapes were made for friends co-workers,and family of Jim's, and were not meant to be duplictaed inanyway shape or form(i have seen the originals, it is quite clearly lapled do not dublicate on it), my feeling is that by buying these online you
    A)disrespecting the families wishes
    B)allowing someone to profit from this dis-Respect ,

    sure peopel what to see things, wish they were part of it, that doesnot at all in anyway justify purchasing smething that you were not meant to have in the first place,

    think of it as buying stolen property , just because you didn't steal it yourself, does not make reciving it ok whether it be thru a cash transaction, or a gift, its still theft plain and simple,

    any basic legal text will say the same thing
  6. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    Then we might as well shut down 90% of the internet. Fan-based websites all use copyrighted photos and other material "not meant to be duplicated in any way, shape or form" that is protected legally. I believe it is ALWAYS TOTALLY WRONG to be profiting from any of this, and feel that doing so is true exploitation. But does that mean a photo from the memorial taken by the press can never be run in a book or magazine that is sold for profit? That the material can never be made available for study in a library or written about in a book, authorized or not by the estate? Jim's death is part of his story, and if we are keeping the facts alive for those who weren't even born then, it becomes educational and not exploitive. If we are sharing a "headline news" story of a memorial that was opened to the public, I don't feel that that is any different than downloading a video shot by a CNN reporter of the World Trade Center tragedy. Is that not stealing the work of someone else, infringing copyright laws and exploiting the death of people who were not in the public eye (by choice-and only after it was too late)? Or is it a way of keeping the facts strait so that people under 16 years old won't be like the "Disney fans" who don't even realize that there was a "Walt" before there was a "Disney". God help us if they forget Jim existed. Sharing the memories of a very public figure, and someone who was so important to us is no more more "exploitive" than if we were to have been invited to the memorial in person, except there wouldn't be a place big enough for everyone who would have wanted to be there. Technology just allows us to morn, share and remember for those of us who didn't get the chance.
  7. crazed gonzo fa

    crazed gonzo fa Well-Known Member

    Couldn't have said it better myself Tim.
  8. a_Mickey_Muppet

    a_Mickey_Muppet Well-Known Member

    righty-o on that one! :smirk:
  9. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle Well-Known Member

    and many are , site like this one, are pretty much here by the grace of the copyright and trademark owners who veiw them as free PR, and Pulicity, as wellas a way to monitor the way fans feel about things, if think they dont know you are here your wrong, many sites have been shutdown, or had legal actions threatend or taken againts them beacuse of the contents of thier sites,

    one such incedent in fandom would be the threated legal action by producer Don Murphy agaisnt several Transforer fan websites when they strated re-posting content from his Blog, on thier sites, the situation was resolved amicably but the threat remains to all fansites.

    we do agree on this point .

    The press was given permision to take photos for publication, they also contaced the companies for photo's, (look at a photo for a movie or character from a movie or comic book in a newspaper , most will have a "photo curtesy of..." or something to a similar effect under the photo .

    same goes for any book related to a person, or a Book about specific icons of popular culture, 90% of the time the photo is printed with permision, any book on puppetry that has muppet photos will have a small credit to the Henson company , or what ever company owns the rights to a specific set of characters, the authors and publishers can not just use any photo from any source, credit is given were it is due, and only when the permision of the rights holder has been granted.

    and their are numerous place for people to learn about individuals and historic events, libraries, and the internet all have fact and hisorical sites were info can be read about people and thier lives,

    well the video shot by CNN or any other news group is most likey to appear online , they have archives on most major news station websites, and they are thier for you downloading pleasure, The video in Question was not filmed by a crew from a mass media market , but By the Henson Comapy , the clips of the service that were seen on TV were supplied to the news outlets by the company, thier were no other video crews in the Cathedral.[/QUOTE]

    DO you really need to be a voyeur in order to rember someone, People who are buying this are not individuals who are likley to forget who Jim is or was, it just fandom getting out of hand, over zealus collectors who feel a compulsion to complete thier collections with a Video , you do not need to watch a service to remember someone, and once again the main issue here is that someone is capitolizing on this video and making a profit from it, and that really is what is bothering me, i do not think i would have bothered posting in this thread if the fact that some one out thier is duping these and selling them for profit didnt anger me ., if someone found it on YOUTUBE or VEOH, i dont think it would bothered me because it is then there freefor the worlkd to see, (even though thats not something the family wants), at least its free, and with out money changing hands, but people spending $20 or giving it to someone who knows they should not be selling this dvd is just plain worng , and that really seems to be the only place were we agree.
  10. crazed gonzo fa

    crazed gonzo fa Well-Known Member

    You sure stick to your opinions ravagefrackle.
  11. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    The main problem is that people in general even so called "fans" these days have a VERY short memory. I won't even get into attentions spans and instant everythings, but if it didn't happen today it's "old school". Sure, there are still people lighting candles for Elvis and holding seances for Houdini, but there is also an entire SECOND generation growing up that don't know (or care) about b & w films, "old" movie stars, former Presidents or last year's technology. And God forbid they actually read. There are already members of this Board that weren't born yet when Jim and Frank were doing their best work, and are accepting the poor level of quality put out by the company today as the best standard. I would hardly consider these "over zealus collectors" looking for a quick voyeristic thrill, since they have no real connection with the man and what he was all about.

    I also hadn't realized that attending a memorial service (even by video) for someone we loved and wish to say goodby to was making us all "voyerus". I suppose saving the original newspaper reports or reading the last chapter of a celebrity biography makes as all sick as well. Let's all just stay at home and send a note to the family that we are thinking of them and remembering the person that way. We can also skip weddings and birthdays as well, because heaven help us if, invited or not, we should exploit or infringe on a family's feelings.

    I'm sure that there are people who are simply going to look at this as a curiosity piece, and there are others who will try to profit from it. There are also people who read and believe everything the tabloids print, and will download or otherwise get a hold of this kind of material for all the wrong reasons, and that is a sad fact of the world we live in. Whether or not this material is provided or pirated that situation will not change. But I like to think that there is a greater good. That we are the keepers of history and the protectors of fact, no matter how unpleasant at times they may be. If we sweep segments of life under a rug we are doing an injustice to future fans, students and entire generations. In doesn't matter that we are discussing Henson or the Hitler, we have to remember it all.

    I know the family and the compannies are between a rock and a hard place. Jim was a public figure, vital to pop culter history, and loved by all. If they sanction or provide the material to provide a record, it looks like they are exploiting his memory, if they don't, it looks like they are trying to bury him all over again. There is no easy answer, and someone is always going to get hurt. I stick to my original arguement that the determanation of when it becomes true "exploitation" is when someone profits from it.

    Jim Henson was a casual friend of mine. Like others here, I grew ups with his work from some of his earliest days. We corresponded, and he directed and taught me a bit. His influence on me and my work is unmeasuable. I'm sorry I was unable to attend his public memorial in person, and this way I am able to say goodby in my own way. I am not looking for a quick thrill or another piece of Muppet memorabila. We all need to decide for ourselves whether or not we want or need to see this, and hopefully for the right reasons.

    Thank God we live in a society where we still have this choice.
  12. crazed gonzo fa

    crazed gonzo fa Well-Known Member

    Once again Tim, nicely said! I couldn't have done it better myself!
  13. a_Mickey_Muppet

    a_Mickey_Muppet Well-Known Member

    yeeeep! :smirk:
  14. MeepBorkMeep

    MeepBorkMeep Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything else ya said, Tim, cept this part. I don't know if you were implying this, but there are many members born after the Good Muppet Era that think the best standard is the earliest Muppet stuff, and not the new crud they're pouring out, including myself. But I do agree with you in some cases. I absolutely hate the post Good Muppet Era fans who say "Omg I love Kermit the frog" without knowing anything about Jim Henson or his company at all. Otherwise, I couldn't say it any better than you did.
  15. ravagefrackle

    ravagefrackle Well-Known Member

    once again i still think ist more than creepy that people are looking for this, and paying for it,if it was being veiwed for free sure go ahead, its ridiculous that people are paying others for this,

    But if saying good by or paying resoect to his memory is what people are aftyer , do they really need to wacth a video to do that?

    i have lost many friends and family members over the years, and i find my memorys in my head are more than enough
  16. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. However you wish to remember a loved one is fine for you. I don't like of go to funerals, and the only way I would be caught in a cemetary would be dead. But I feel that a memorial service or other get together to remember someone close is another matter. I'm not about to second guess what Jim himself would make of all this, but givin his sence of humor and totally open mind, I'm sure he would find it curiously fastenating, and maybe even a little bit funny. This is the same guy that had a dixieland band playing, and let's not forget Kermit's line at Edgar Bergen's farewell: "I've never played a funeral before!".

    I would respect any decision made by anyone concerning their own final arraingemnts. Walt Disney would have NONE of it. Johnny Carson left us without a trace. Even Eren Ozker spoke of herself at the end (paraphrasing) "My death is not important..my LIFE is."

    If we are quibbling about the legalities of it all, then I am ridiculously guilty of selling copyrighted Muppet collectables on eBay...and so are six million other uses. Let's put a stop to that, along with every garage sale, antique shop photo copy shop and VCR manufacturer, as they are all going to **** for stealing. I truly believe that there is a greater good to come from something like this. Preserving history, and keeping the facts strait. Though a memorial service is not the way I want to remember Jim (especially knowing what the future brought), I would hate to think the Jim Henson story ended with a half-finished 3-D film or overly violent Turtle movie.

    I was lucky. I got to see Jim and Frank with Johnny, Merv, Dinah and almost every variety show host on TV. I'm only sorry VCR didn't exist for the common man back then, what a library I would have had! The audio tapes I made will have to do--OOPS! there I go, stealing again!

    Which brings me to my other point. I know that there are plenty of members here who know that Kermit didn't originate with Steve Whitmire. But there are also that many that weren't even born when Jim died. The have no personal connection with him or his work. The "good" performances we are getting now are "good enough", since they have no area of reference. Henson is going to have the same problem Disney has now-keeping their founder's memory alive-if they even care to do so. History is already being altered. Did anyone catch the black and white photo of Jim on the US Postage stamps? Sorry guys, he was holding a Fisher-Price Bert toy NOT Kermit, who wasn't even Photoshopped at the right scale! I guess they figure "We'd rather do it our way then pay a few bucks to Fisher-Price to keep the facts strait. So what? Who cares?"

    TRUE fans like me care. All material-even a "creepy" memorial service MUST be made available for future generations. Fans MUST demand it, and the holders of such MUST make it available for the greater good.

    Just not for profit.
  17. crazed gonzo fa

    crazed gonzo fa Well-Known Member

    You sure have a way with words Tim, excellent!
  18. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    Thanks. I'm sorry to vent, but being a major Walt Disney fan, I see what's happening to his memory. I would hate to see the same happen to Jim, especially with all the technology that is available, to anyone who cares to know more about him.

    I would love to see someone start a cable channel of all old talk shows, sport, polititcal and celebrity themed so we can see for ourselves the "old vintage" (1970's) interviews these folks gave. I especially liked the old "Dinah!" show since she would theme the guests and keep them onstage for most of the 90 minutes. The Muppet segments-including Kermit's 21st Birthday show were great. So relaxed and in depth, and not like the MTV style pre-packaged publicists promo segment with some "American Idol" kid wo remembers Watergate from her High School history books.

    I only wished I had been able to tape The Muppets hosting the "Tonight" show in '79 or their guest shot on Cher's short-lived variety hour. Sure, it's "old school", but it's also so much a part of the entire Muppet story, and I only hope someone, somewhere has the forsight to at least be saving and preserving this stuff, even if it doesn't get shown again in our lifetimes.

    As for funerals, memorial or wakes, of course I would rather see Jim joking with Carson, or accepting an Emmy. When I was younger, I lived for those prime-time appearances and live "Saturday Night" segments. But the facts are what they are. It's part of the story, part of history. Looking back on farewells to the famous is fastenating, and not in a morbid way. Be it Lincoln or Reagan, Rudolph Valentino or Lady Di it's all history, all fact and just like the rest of life, the bad has to go along with the good.

    I would NEVER support any material that truly exploited Jim's family or their emotions. I find it disgusting when a reporter shoves a microphone in the face of someone who his hysterical with loss just to get a sound bite for the 6 o'clock news. That is NOT reporting-THAT is true exploitation. But a public farewell for a famous man with cameras recording everythig for fact is different. We sweep this under the rug, and we are all doing ourselves a diservice.

    I'm certainly sorry for the Henson family's loss, and I know it has to be painful still. But they know that Jim, to a certain extent belonged to all of us, just by the nature of his choosing to be a public person. Their loss is our loss and we are far and away worse off because of it, as both an audience and a people. The same can be said of Disney. Losing Jim henson once was bad enough, God knows. Losing him again because no one wants to protect, preserve or present his work if there is no profit in it would be nothing short of criminal.
  19. crazed gonzo fa

    crazed gonzo fa Well-Known Member

    Yeah, if Walt was still alive Disney wouldn't make all this cheap-straight-to-DVD sequeals.:grouchy: :sleep: :crazy:
  20. Tim

    Tim Well-Known Member

    Muppets need what Disney got-a John Lassiter to ride in and save the day. Any volunteers?

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